Speaking in tongues

[Noose]

So you're a Calvinist too?

Acts 16:
30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

I'm not a Calvinist and i don't know what Calvinism is.
The statement you have quoted is true; one "believes" to be saved and belief is something in one's heart. No man can claim that this person and that person are saved and the other person is not. The kingdom of god doesn't come with observable signs that people will say there it and here it goes.

Even with what we believe our-self (within us), we can not claim that we are saved. Just as the name suggests, it is something at the end of a process and that process is salvation and salvation is God's work (not ours). We are required to maintain perseverance until the end so as to enter God's sabbath(rest) which means completion of His work.

 

[PS]

When the comforter came to the disciples, He manifest and was physically symbolized by what looked like a tongue of fire on each one of them, what about you?
That's exactly my point, the physical manifestation in signs and wonders ceased in the 1st century and that includes the speaking of tongues, if you want claim that what is happening today is genuine, you'll also have to explain other physical manifestations that don't happen today.

It says for all time. Jesus said it and I don't argue.

 

[shrume]

Sort of but not entirely. The context is proper use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There are as you say nine but three are slated to go away. Yes tongues are one of the three.

And tongues will cease, when that which is perfect comes.

Tongues in Acts did not require an interpreter. In Corinth they require an interpreter.

Only when spoken aloud in public.

Tongues at the end of the day are languages.

Yes.

Paul was likely multi lingual. Paul would have learned Hebrew, Aramaic Greek, and Latin.

Completely irrelevant to the manifestation of speaking in tongues. When Paul spoke in tongues, he did not understand what he was saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14).

Paul chides those who claim unknown tongues as unfruitful and speaking into the air.

When spoken in public, tongues must be interpreted so the church can be edified.

Lots of stuff going on in Corinth that was not present in Acts.

The tongues were the same. Both the apostles in Acts 2 and the Corinthians were operating the manifestation of speaking in tongues. Part of the miracle of Pentecost was that the languages the apostles were speaking were understood by others present. That is not guaranteed, and almost never happens, which is why when tongues are spoken out loud in public, they must be interpreted.

Barely mentioned by Jesus if you accept the long ending of Mark. Paul chides Gentiles over their tendency toward idolatry.

Paul assured the Corinthians that NO ONE speaking by the spirit of God (speaking in tongues) calls esus accursed.[/quote][/quote]

 

[PS]

I'm not a Calvinist and i don't know what Calvinism is.
The statement you have quoted is true; one "believes" to be saved and belief is something in one's heart. No man can claim that this person and that person are saved and the other person is not. The kingdom of god doesn't come with observable signs that people will say there it and here it goes.

Even with what we believe our-self (within us), we can not claim that we are saved. Just as the name suggests, it is something at the end of a process and that process is salvation and salvation is God's work (not ours). We are required to maintain perseverance until the end so as to enter God's sabbath(rest) which means completion of His work.

Take heed.

 

[Noose]

It says for all time. Jesus said it and I don't argue.

I know it is for all time, but what do you say about this:

Mark 16: 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

How many of these things listed above do you think ceased and how many do you think continue today and what could be the reason?

 

[shrume]

I'm not a Calvinist and i don't know what Calvinism is.
The statement you have quoted is true; one "believes" to be saved and belief is something in one's heart. No man can claim that this person and that person are saved and the other person is not. The kingdom of god doesn't come with observable signs that people will say there it and here it goes.

You claimed "no one can claim that they want to get saved". That is not true.

Even with what we believe our-self (within us), we can not claim that we are saved. Just as the name suggests, it is something at the end of a process and that process is salvation and salvation is God's work (not ours). We are required to maintain perseverance until the end so as to enter God's sabbath(rest) which means completion of His work.

I'm sorry you are uncertain of your salvation.

1 John 3:
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14) Which is the earnest [guarantee] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1 John 5:
10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

 

[PS]

I know it is for all time, but what do you say about this:

Mark 16: 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

How many of these things listed above do you think ceased and how many do you think continue today and what could be the reason?

You are asking the wrong question. God is unchanging. You should be asking WHY? and my answer can be seen here, never mind the Godlessness in the world.

 

[Noose]

You claimed "no one can claim that they want to get saved". That is not true.


I'm sorry you are uncertain of your salvation.

1 John 3:
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14) Which is the earnest [guarantee] of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1 John 5:
10) He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Faith is hope for things to come and hope can't be certain but is humble and perseveres.

1 Cor 10:11Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall.

Romans 11:20
That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.

Salvation is a promise but take heed to err in your belief.

 

[shrume]

Faith is hope for things to come and hope can't be certain but is humble and perseveres.

1 Cor 10:11Now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. 12So the one who thinks he is standing firm should be careful not to fall.

That verse is not talking about losing salvation.

Romans 11:20
That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.

Salvation is a promise but take heed to err in your belief.

So John and Paul had it wrong...

According to you, we are NOT sons of God now, and there is no guarantee of salvation...

 

[Noose]

That verse is not talking about losing salvation.


So John and Paul had it wrong...

According to you, we are NOT sons of God now, and there is no guarantee of salvation...

Is it you who declares sonship or the father has declared "they will be my children and i their God.."?

The verse is not talking about losing salvation but it is talking about faith right? is there salvation without faith?
Faith is actually things hoped for, yes it is an assurance but to what extent can we claim that we are assured of salvation? if you claim you are saved, that would be boastful and pride that works in you and your faith will no longer be hope for the things to come, but we must be humble in our utterances.
We can say God will see us through because the word 'saved' implies the end of a process just like the word 'defeated'. It is in it's past form and can only be claimed at the end (But God who knows the end can declare it even now). Claiming that you are saved now is just like claiming that you have defeated sin and death now- these are things that we hope for, our strong belief now assures us of victory in the future which we must wait in humbleness.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

You have done a good job of giving us what you think but these are only your thoughts because if all that can be put in summary, Paul is insisting on 'understanding' and verse 9 says it all:

1 Cor 14:9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.

What does Paul mean with 'speak intelligible words with your tongue'?

that is not what Paul said

that is what you wish he said so that he would have agreed with you

I quote the Bible verbatim and you change it to suit your preference

it is useless to discuss scripture with someone who does this sort of thing so please do not wait up for further discussion regarding the above

 

[7seasrekeyed]

And my thinking is that these (whatever you are saying) is not happening today, it ceased in the 1st century for reasons i have already explained. What is happening today is not real- i'm not trashing your experience but is not in our position to claim that a person is saved. Salvation is something that is purely in someone's heart- we can not say he is saved and this other one is not saved. Likewise, no one can claim that they want to get saved, salvation is God's doing.

if no one can desire to be saved, then why did Nicodemus ask what he had to do to be saved?

your doctrine does not agree with what is written in scripture

I find it a dangerous thing to do what you are doing and lead those who do not know the Bible very well, down the path of 'another gospel'

 

[7seasrekeyed]

well I guess we are pretty much past the actual op...a long time ago...and are now dealing with why some seem to think it is ok to change what is written in black and white

I mean if you disagree about something but at least acknowledge it says what it says, that is one thing

but actually taking the words and changing them?

and I just saw the same thing going on in another thread where someone changed the 'whosoever' in John 3:15 to

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so THE ELECT who believe in Him shall not perish but have ever lasting life

that is not ok to do

that is the path to heresy and apostasy

 

[CS1]

And my thinking is that these (whatever you are saying) is not happening today, it ceased in the 1st century for reasons i have already explained. What is happening today is not real- i'm not trashing your experience but is not in our position to claim that a person is saved. Salvation is something that is purely in someone's heart- we can not say he is saved and this other one is not saved. Likewise, no one can claim that they want to get saved, salvation is God's doing.

that is fine you are saying that . it's just you have not shown me where it says the "Gifts of the Holy Spirit " have ceased Biblically. and 1cor 13:10

 

[CS1]

And my thinking is that these (whatever you are saying) is not happening today, it ceased in the 1st century for reasons i have already explained. What is happening today is not real- i'm not trashing your experience but is not in our position to claim that a person is saved. Salvation is something that is purely in someone's heart- we can not say he is saved and this other one is not saved. Likewise, no one can claim that they want to get saved, salvation is God's doing.

for reasons you explained is the issue as to why I do not agree . You say they have ceased " the Gifts of the Holy Spirit" or just tongues and prophecy ? either way you can't show me in the word of God were it states " the gifts have ceased in the 1st century". There is no Biblical reasons for that claim. And you have not and cannot show me in the Word of God that Claim. 1cor 13:8-10 are not the full context of the "Gifts of the Holy Spirit. If it were then 1cor 14:36- 40 should not have been said .
And I never said it was a claim that a person was saved . What I said is there was atime when this gift was in operation and a person who was there who did not have anything to do with the operation of the gift heard it and wanted to get saved. that is it. Yes Salvation is Gods doing and the gifts were used to win that person. And you are wrong that it is something that is purely in somes heart . The heart of man is not pure . The Gospel message is the Power of GOd unto salvation. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are used to comfort , edify, build up, instruct, teach, preach, and the word of God produce salvation as Jesus is proclaimed.

 

[Waggles]

All Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit from the moment they believe the word of God, called Christ in us .

Not true.
Wishful thinking.

 

[Kavik]

I’ve been following these threads since last I posted and it’s amazing to me the number of different versions and understandings of “tongues” people have (myself included).

What is interesting to me is that almost all the views expressed speak to evidencing/justifying the modern phenomenon via the narrative of scripture. That is, trying to prove the modern phenomenon by evidencing it in the Bible; or conversely, arguing and attempting to show and demonstrate that the Biblical narratives with (respect to tongues) equate to the modern phenomenon.

It just isn’t there; there are no references to “tongues” in the Bible that cannot be explained in terms of, and in light of, real rational language(s). There are plenty of threads on this site that go into this in detail.

All of these arguments are based upon the redefinition of ‘tongues’ by Pentecostals in the early 1900’s. ‘Tongues’ went from being able to supernaturally speak a real rational language completely hitherto unknown to the speaker (xenoglossy), to a completely unknown ‘private prayer language’, or (if spoken in public) an unknown ‘language’ to the speaker that must be ‘interpreted’. This redefinition is integral for this group of Christians in explaining the modern phenomenon in light of scripture.

How do you account for the complete change of tongues doctrine within the Pentecostal church (from definite xenoglossy to unknown “private prayer language”) within about a year or so (1907-1908)?

Why the (seeming) insistence on assuming that “tongues” are something somehow different than “language”? This is perpetuated by continual use of the archaic term ‘tongues’. There’s no reason not to use the more modern term. Like-wise with the word ‘interpretation’. Why is it not replaced with ‘translation’ (though to be fair, ‘interpretation’ is typically used when referring to ‘translating’ the spoken word). Does ‘interpretation’ make it somehow more ‘supernatural’ or esoteric sounding?

Replace ‘tongues’ with ‘language’ (since that’s what the word actually means in modern English) and ‘interpretation’ with ‘translation’ in these passages, and it becomes somewhat difficult to posit the modern phenomenon and have it actually make sense in the context of a given passage.

For those who speak them; have you ever recorded yourself and then listened to what you’re producing?? If not, why not? If you have; what, to you, makes it a language? I would be very curious to know.

There just isn’t anything a ‘tongues-speaker’ is doing that cannot be explain in very simple Linguistic terms. Modern tongues fail the most basic tests which define the concept of ‘language’ – what is being produced is not language, though it is definitely perceived as such by its speakers.

An example of perhaps the most basic universal criteria for something to be ‘language’ is that, at its very basic level, it can be described as consisting of two things: (1) discrete units of various sorts, and (2) rules and principles that govern the way these discrete units can be combined and ordered. It doesn’t matter where (earth, heaven, some distant planet) or by whom (humans, God, angels, aliens) it’s spoken; these criteria are universal. Glossolalia/modern tongues contains neither one of these criteria.

Mind you, I’m not arguing the modern “tongues experience” which is what most people describe when discussing ‘tongues’. Tongues, or more properly, the concept of glossolalia, is a very powerful tool which has been used by various cultures and spiritual paths since time immemorial; but as far as its use in Christianity, it’s a relatively recent addition.

It almost seems to me that it’s ‘discovery’ and subsequent use by Christianity was never really quite fully understood. It seems the concept of glossolalia as a self-created tool just wasn’t an acceptable explanation for this group of Christians. They automatically, and understandably quite naturally, looked towards the narrative of scripture for an answer that would align more closely to their beliefs, but there wasn’t anything there that quite fit the modern phenomenon. The result was that any reference to ‘tongues’ that were there, were redefined and reinterpreted to ‘evidence’ the modern phenomenon.

In defense of the modern phenomenon, whether or not what a modern tongues-speaker is doing is “Biblical” or not, is really kind of a silly argument. There are thousands of things we do every day that are “not in the Bible”; it doesn’t automatically make them wrong.

When recognized as just one of many tools used to establish a closer relationship with the divine, one can rightly defend the modern phenomenon despite the lack of anything in remotely similar in the narratives of scripture.

By the way, let me also add here that I am neither a so-called ‘cessationist’ nor a ‘continuationist’ – I do not identify with either term; in fact, I had never heard the two terms until just late in 2016. Cessationist vs, non-cessationist is a false dichotomy; ‘gifts ceasing’ is mentioned only once in one short sentence, and the remainder of the Bible is totally silent on the matter. The one place it is mentioned is rarely taken into context of the entire passage. As far as I’m concerned, quite frankly, since the Biblical reference to “tongues” is to real, rational languages, obviously “tongues” haven’t “ceased”; people still speak.

 

[notuptome]

Not true.
Wishful thinking.

Romans 8:9 tells us the truth.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Every person that is saved has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Without the Holy Spirit no man is saved.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The Holy Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we are the Lords.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[7seasrekeyed]

waggles I see where you just placed another x on another of my posts

however, you have not offered any proof (scripture) to refute what I have posted and illustrated from scripture

in fact, what you seem to actually do is just disagree with what you disagree with

in other words, if waggles disagrees then it must be wrong

where is the scripture(s) that states if you do not speak in tongues you are not filled with the Holy Spirit?

nowhere does Paul say what you are saying regarding tongues is a sign that a person has the Holy Spirit

if you cannot back up what you say other than by saying 'that's wrong' then I would submit you just believe what you have been taught and get insulted when someone disagrees with you

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Romans 8:9 tells us the truth.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Every person that is saved has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Without the Holy Spirit no man is saved.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 ¶ And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

The Holy Spirit witnesses to our spirit that we are the Lords.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

the Bible does say that a believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit

it does not say you must speak in tongues or no Holy Spirit

I will say at this point that waggles is skirting dangerously close to saying if you don't speak in tongues you are not saved even though he denied it some pages back

you do NOT have to speak in tongues in order to be saved. that is completely WRONG

so we agree on something in this thread

phew