Let the blind, the false teachers, the confused, and the ignorant, lead the blind.
Speaking in tongues
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1 Cor 14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2For anyone who speaks in a tonguea does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5I would like every one of you to speak in tongues,b but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues,c unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
People who claim modern tongues are real mostly base their arguments on the two verses (1 Cor 14:2/4,5). Despite these verses, tongues should be real human language, not unknown modern tongues. Paul did not mean that no one understands tongues. I'll explain with an example:
Language is a tool used to transfer understanding from one person to the other and when we preach the gospel, we are trying to transfer what we know to others who don't know and make them believe.
I can be given the ability to utter Greek, but if i utter Greek to a Spanish congregation, then i'm speaking mysteries to them and my understanding is unfruitful because i'll not manage to transfer my understanding to others who truly need it. For these reason, Paul says you are speaking mysteries in spirit because no one understands and that your understanding doesn't bear fruit- better if you keep quiet.
It is true that if you are not successful in transferring understanding to others (edifying others), the edification (understanding) remains with you and that's what Paul calls self edification. The gifts of the Holy spirit are never for self edification but should profit all within the body.
And Paul was correcting the Corinthians for misusing the gift of tongues; yes it could have been real but the idea that they'd go speaking Spanish to Greeks was childish.
And Paul told them:
1 Cor 14:9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.
So in essence, we must speak Spanish to a Spanish congregation.
Modern tongues are not even a language, they go against 1 Cor 14:9 where we are told, we must speak intelligible words with our tongue.
People who claim modern tongues are real mostly base their arguments on the two verses (1 Cor 14:2/4,5). Despite these verses, tongues should be real human language, not unknown modern tongues. Paul did not mean that no one understands tongues. I'll explain with an example:
Language is a tool used to transfer understanding from one person to the other and when we preach the gospel, we are trying to transfer what we know to others who don't know and make them believe.
I can be given the ability to utter Greek, but if i utter Greek to a Spanish congregation, then i'm speaking mysteries to them and my understanding is unfruitful because i'll not manage to transfer my understanding to others who truly need it. For these reason, Paul says you are speaking mysteries in spirit because no one understands and that your understanding doesn't bear fruit- better if you keep quiet.
It is true that if you are not successful in transferring understanding to others (edifying others), the edification (understanding) remains with you and that's what Paul calls self edification. The gifts of the Holy spirit are never for self edification but should profit all within the body.
And Paul was correcting the Corinthians for misusing the gift of tongues; yes it could have been real but the idea that they'd go speaking Spanish to Greeks was childish.
And Paul told them:
1 Cor 14:9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.
So in essence, we must speak Spanish to a Spanish congregation.
Modern tongues are not even a language, they go against 1 Cor 14:9 where we are told, we must speak intelligible words with our tongue.
We need to read the whole discourse down to verse 33. Paul is what today we might call an academic and in his writing, he goes to great lengths to explain all the pro's and cons, the why's and the wherefores, so that we might have a full and proper understanding, even explaining what is wrong and why it is wrong, and that is what he is doing in this passage. The trouble is, people extract one verse that suits their prefered option, take it out of context and build their theology around it and in so doing create a false cult.
Thie verse you quote is a truth, which is that in all things we need to be understood. Correct! Paul ends this particular discourse by saying "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." (1Co 14:33 KJV) and to that end he tells us there needs to be an interpreter present, otherwise, we are to remain silent. So, good advice, but as this is God's way of communicating with us we really need to encourage this gift for our own edification which will certainly be far more beneficial than listening to a sermon given by a mere mortal like ourselves.
Just to add, sometimes it may be a message for one particular person, so vitally important for them and it is really good that God can speak to us through his prophets (the interpreter) even today. May God bless them and us, as we listen to His word.
Somebody needs to sharpen his reading skills. Waggles and I generally agree on what speaking in tongues is. What we disagree on is whether or not water baptism is required for salvation.
(Waggles, I’ll respond to your post later..)
"Generally agree" is in other words saying you don't agree.
We need to read the whole discourse down to verse 33. Paul is what today we might call an academic and in his writing, he goes to great lengths to explain all the pro's and cons, the why's and the wherefores, so that we might have a full and proper understanding, even explaining what is wrong and why it is wrong, and that is what he is doing in this passage. The trouble is, people extract one verse that suits their prefered option, take it out of context and build their theology around it and in so doing create a false cult.
Thie verse you quote is a truth, which is that in all things we need to be understood. Correct! Paul ends this particular discourse by saying "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." (1Co 14:33 KJV) and to that end he tells us there needs to be an interpreter present, otherwise, we are to remain silent. So, good advice, but as this is God's way of communicating with us we really need to encourage this gift for our own edification which will certainly be far more beneficial than listening to a sermon given by a mere mortal like ourselves.
Just to add, sometimes it may be a message for one particular person, so vitally important for them and it is really good that God can speak to us through his prophets (the interpreter) even today. May God bless them and us, as we listen to His word.
To me, the point about interpretation of a tongue is more like;
I have the gift and i can utter in Greek and if i speak to a mostly Spanish congregation, there must be a gifted interpreter who interprets from Greek to Spanish but also some two or three witnesses who understands Greek that will confirm my tongue.
Hardly what happens today.
But you also need to ask yourself, are the dead being raised bodily today like they used to do in the 1st century? are there people with the gift of healing like in the 1st century? When is say gift of healing i mean a person who can walk in a cancer ward and heal the patients in a hospital not someone who claims healing in some dungeon.
Note-It is the same spirit that raised the dead bodily and healed in the 1st century that should be gifting people with tongues, right?
So, in your church, can people raise dead bodies?
It is God who raises the dead and heals the sick, it used to happen (not the raising of the dead) but sadly the congregation has diminished and it is now what I would call a 'dead church' like so many. We need a Pentecostal Revival.
All Christians have the gift of God's interpretation, the Bible. God is no longer bringing any new revelations.
And the lack of consensus and the disagreements are evidence of the mess they make of it.
Where is the faith? Why not mix faith in what you hear coming from the scriptures? Why go above it? Feels goose bump good?
All Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit from the moment they believe the word of God, called Christ in us .
Having someone shake and touch the forehead as in falling back slain in the spirit is just another innovation of men as a oral tradition. Like Holy laughter or many new innovations .It has nothing to do with the scriptures .Christian walk by the excusive faith that comes from hearing all thing written in the law and prophets .(sola scriptura)
Do the Pentecostal sign seekers , like the Catholic sign seekers both call sola scriptura, a heresy?
No such thing as a "sign gift" making a noise and called it topping off up something that is not there. Where was the Spirit before the refill?
God does not give a percentage of His Holy Spirit.The full spirit is needed to n beleive.
Why go above that which is written?
Well tongues in Corinthians do not appear to be the same as the tongues in Acts. Tongues in Acts were uttered spontaneously at the time of conversion. No interpretation was required because folks heard in their own language what was said.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The disagreement begins when men attach another foundation to the law of tongues other than that of Isaiah 28 . Making it about something they can seek after as if God was served by human hands.
The law of Isaiah 28 is repeated in 1 Corinthians 14 making the deeds of the flesh without effect. No man can serve two masters both the flesh and the new born again spirit of grace.
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe(God) , but to them that believe not: (God) but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.1 Corinthians 14: 21-22
The mystery to me is how and why do men turn the law upside down so that can serve the flesh when faced with the word of God like in the portion above again....."not to them that believe, but to them that believe not."
Our agreement is with God and not us. He is fully capable of setting it straight when he divides the sheep from the goats in the end .
Scripture defines the us in Christ. We all have the same fullness of the Holy Spirit .(one body)
Its his loving commandment that moves us to study by seeking His approval. In that way there must be heresies as private interpretations of men called person commentaries .God would never have us seek after the approval of men .That describes the spirit of the antichrists(many)
1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Again God does not give partial power, or grace .Not like a gas tank running on fumes... and a person better work a miracle, make a noise or fall backward and fill it to the brim .Its never about the feelings of the flesh
2 Corinthians 4:7 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us
The problem as I see it is men either refuse to "mix faith" in what they hear coming from prophecy or have not learned what it means to "mix faith" when hearing the gospel, the spiritual meaning is hid from natural man the sign seekers .
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
let me add to this (apart from my cynicism of late last night which I would still write even with the sun up
)hello!! Paul was Jewish and dealing with a revelation from a someone he thought was dead who had also lived as a Jew and Paul had been persecuting the Jews
who should he have gone to first? it was not Paul's custom to do anything but persecute the Jews who believed in Jesus. He did confer with the other Apostles who had been with Jesus physically and it was agreed his teaching was genuine
now as for you saying he went to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected him? well this is what Paul says about it himself:
1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures 3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, 4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. 5 Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. 6 And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
when Paul says 'through him' he is referring, of course, to Jesus (v. 1-4) and what does he say? he says that he received grace and apostleship. for what? to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name's sake (and so on)
Paul was sent to the Gentiles by Christ.
he did not go to the Gentiles because the Jews rejected him
it's plainly and simply written in Paul's own words and frankly, once again, you manage to come up with your own version of the events
I will just let scripture speak for itself as anyone can read why Paul went to the Gentiles. It's really not up for debate
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7seasrekeyed
Guest
show me the verse(s) that say that speaking in tongues are evidence for being filled with the Holy Spirit
you may have an experience, but that is not doctrine
7
7seasrekeyed
Guest
I'm not going to get into a debate as it seems you are not for turning as they used to say about Margaret Thatcher.
Just let me say that God, who is spirit, is omnipresent in heaven and on earth. God is known to the angels in heaven and on earth through Jesus Christ, and by His Spirit to those who believe and have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour through whom we have access to the Father, who is Spirit and is Holy i.e. the HOLY SPIRIT. To minimise the Holy Spirit, to argue against the Holy Spirit, to dispute regarding the Holy Spirit is to argue, dispute, make of no effect Father God in their lives. Do you not understand that the Holy Spirit is GOD WITH US the same as Jesus was "God with us" in the flesh. Those who speak against the Holy Spirit are speaking against God the Father himself. It is GOD who makes himself known to us through HIS spirit. In effect, these people are the enemies of God and are playing with fire.
what are you going on about?
are you trying to convince me about the gifts?
I think you have me confused with an unbeliever
I believe.
Paul and Peter raised the dead (i stand to be corrected)- so you are saying it is God who raised the dead through them; i agree with you and i would also say that it is God that heal through people and Peter and Paul spoke in tongues by the same God- so it is the same God that utters in new tongues through the people.
My question was very simple, why is it that in your church there's utterance of tongues but there's no raising of the dead; aren't they from the same God?
I would hope in sharing our bread . Who knows perhaps we might be entetaining messengers of God who bring the word of God.
I would think every man has a personal bias like fingerprints and would be open to look on how we can hear God and not men .
It would make a great bible study I believe. After all their is only one teacher the Holy Spirit .He promise to keep on teaching us and brining to memory that which he has taught us. We are the forgetful ones .
Hebrews 13:2Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.