John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism

[Danny1988]

Yes, but we eventually sinned ourself. and as ther word says .

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I could not bring myself to life if I wanted. so not sure why this argument is used so often.

Jesus offered to bring me to life based on his death. He drew me, I responded. And says yes lord, I want what you are offering.(faith) Please apply it to my life. He tried to draw many others, and as happened in John 6, They did not respond, they said no lord, I do not want what your offering. I like things the way they have been. (unbelief)

Much like the tax collector. Lord have mercy on a sinner such as me. Jesus said he went home justified (forgiven of all sin) Not because he earned it, or saved himself, or tried to bring himself to life, By his cry we understand he understood he could not do that, otherwise, he would not have cried out to God.

Again, the penalty of sin is death, we are not made alive until we accept the gift, which is eternal life. God will not force it on us.

A dead person can not receive anything, because he is dead

That is not the only point of disagreement, if that was all, there most likely would not be an issue, unless our pride would swell up and we have to get you to believe exactly like us

The issue is why those who will go to hell go according to fatalism as I call it, Thats a MAJOR issue,

It's a very simple issue, they go to hell because they sinned their whole life and never repented. They were never given the gift of repentance, God left them in their sin. Nobody deserves to be saved, so it's a miracle that God chose to save anyone

 

[notuptome]

A dead person can not receive anything, because he is dead

It's a very simple issue, they go to hell because they sinned their whole life and never repented. They were never given the gift of repentance, God left them in their sin. Nobody deserves to be saved, so it's a miracle that God chose to save anyone

And yet.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wants everyone to inherit eternal life. Not all are willing to be saved.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Danny1988]

amen, lest we should boast. Not of works.

unfortunately you go to far to make sure that is correct.

Us trusting God is not us eaning salvation, nor is it a work, I can not boast of saving myself because I had faith in someone else saving me, the one who saves gets the glory, I get nothing. but the gift he gave me (salvation)

It is when we do as God demands, and repenting, coming to true saving faith, based solely on the work of God on the cross. and in our lives (as he draws us to himself. which is a process.. it does not happen in an instant or overnight.)

why do you think some chose to believe while others call the Gospel foolishness. I know lots of good people but they see the Gospel as foolishness. Are we smarter then them, I say no. I have cousin he is super intelligent, he makes $400 per hour designing computer programs yet he scoffs at the Gospel.
So why do some believe and others wouldn't believe in a million years, Calvin hit the nail on the head

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A dead person can not receive anything, because he is dead

A physically dead person, your right,

We are not phsyically dead, we are living breathing beings with the ability to know between good and evil, and we chose daily to do good. or do evil, as the good book says, even gentiles who did not have the law. by nature do what is in the law (good)

if we can know good. Know we are dead in sin, know we are rightely judged, We can know what will save us as God declaires it to us through his word, people and his creation.

It's a very simple issue, they go to hell because they sinned their whole life and never repented. They were never given the gift of repentance, God left them in their sin. Nobody deserves to be saved, so it's a miracle that God chose to save anyone

Its wrong, its damning to c=Gods character. and it claimes God is a respecter of persons (All people deserve hell. not one person deserved heaven, But instead of offering ALL people the gift of life, God picked and chose who to save and who not to save, Thus making the people he saved favored, meaning he is a respector of persons.

not to mention, He is no longer a God of love, He is no better than a dictator who will kill people for no reason other than it was his will. yet other people who may even deserve to be executed more than the ones who he did kill. he lets be saved, based solely on his desire, because he is a respector of persons. (even if he claims he is not)

Your puffing yourself up above all people who will end up in hell. because God chose you not them, now please do not tell me this is not boasting..

 

[Danny1988]

And yet.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wants everyone to inherit eternal life. Not all are willing to be saved.

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Everybody wants salvation, nobody wants to spend eternity in hell fire. They aren't willing because they don't have the gift of faith

 

[notuptome]

why do you think some chose to believe while others call the Gospel foolishness. I know lots of good people but they see the Gospel as foolishness. Are we smarter then them, I say no. I have cousin he is super intelligent, he makes $400 per hour designing computer programs yet he scoffs at the Gospel.
So why do some believe and others wouldn't believe in a million years, Calvin hit the nail on the head

Calvin was swinging at Arminius not the gospel.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Everybody wants salvation, nobody wants to spend eternity in hell fire. They aren't willing because they don't have the gift of faith

Faith comes by hearing the word of God.

Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Men refuse because they love sin more than eternal life.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shrume]

Everybody wants salvation

No they don't. Many people are perfectly content not believing in God, thinking that this life is all there is, "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die".

nobody wants to spend eternity in hell fire.

People who do not believe in God do not believe in hell.

They aren't willing because they don't have the gift of faith

They aren't willing because they don't want to believe.

 

[Danny1988]

A physically dead person, your right,

We are not phsyically dead, we are living breathing beings with the ability to know between good and evil, and we chose daily to do good. or do evil, as the good book says, even gentiles who did not have the law. by nature do what is in the law (good)

if we can know good. Know we are dead in sin, know we are rightely judged, We can know what will save us as God declaires it to us through his word, people and his creation.



Its wrong, its damning to c=Gods character. and it claimes God is a respecter of persons (All people deserve hell. not one person deserved heaven, But instead of offering ALL people the gift of life, God picked and chose who to save and who not to save, Thus making the people he saved favored, meaning he is a respector of persons.

not to mention, He is no longer a God of love, He is no better than a dictator who will kill people for no reason other than it was his will. yet other people who may even deserve to be executed more than the ones who he did kill. he lets be saved, based solely on his desire, because he is a respector of persons. (even if he claims he is not)

Your puffing yourself up above all people who will end up in hell. because God chose you not them, now please do not tell me this is not boasting..

God elect are no better than anyone else, God would have been righteous and just if He left all of us in our sin as He did with the reprobate. But in His mercy He chose to save some, that shows that He is a merciful and loving God

 

[garee]

We cannot love him UNTIL we experience first hand his love, in salvation. While he is drawing us, we are seeking and trying to find answers, (if we are open) and looking to try to find truth. and God is sharing us and helping us to understand that truth, but even then, we can not love him,

Yes, we love him because (cause and effect) he first loved us giving us His faith to believe Him not seen, our first love.

No man can come unless he draws them and if he is he will in no wise cast them out. He finishes that in which he begins . New faith is the gift of Him drawing us .

It is not until we come to faith, Call out to God, God saved us by giving us his righteousness and his spirit. that he makes us alive, and THEN we can learn to love him as he loved us

.

Amen, His faith that works in us does the calling raising us to new spirit life from dead in our trespasses and sin, without hope and without God in this present world

 

[eternally-gratefull]

why do you think some chose to believe while others call the Gospel foolishness.

Because some have faith, and some want nothing to do with it.

I know lots of good people but they see the Gospel as foolishness.

Does that mean God has not worked on them, shared his word to them, and used you or others to expose them to the light so they can see?

No.

Are we smarter then them, I say no.

Again, this is a typical Calvinist response, which is nonsense, I know people who are smarter than me, In fact, a jewish pharisee could quote the OT verbatim, does that mean he should have been saved, and not me?

how smart a person does not make a person savable. His heart is what has to be changed, and only God can work though himself and others and circumstances of life to bring that person to faith, Again, People respond differently, whaty may work for you may not work for me, God knows. because he knows us.

I have cousin he is super intelligent, he makes $400 per hour designing computer programs yet he scoffs at the Gospel.
So why do some believe and others wouldn't believe in a million years, Calvin hit the nail on the head

Calvin swung and missed, He was so fearful of taking any credit for himself. he reacted that thought that even our free will decision to say yest to God was a work, sadly, he brought alot of people with him.

what is the answer? Jesus gave us the answer

the proud pharisee praised God he was not like the tax collector. he was smarter, loved God, had less sin, even after jesus exposed his sin,

the tax collector. He took what God showed him, and sought after God, which God said whoever does, he will show them his truth, and came to the point he was broken, because like paul he considered any good deeds or things he had as useless.. showing he truly repented.

Who did Jesus say went home saved? the smart righteous pharisee who refused to acknowledge how broken he was, ? or the humble broken sinner?

 

[Danny1988]

No they don't. Many people are perfectly content not believing in God, thinking that this life is all there is, "eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die".


People who do not believe in God do not believe in hell.


They aren't willing because they don't want to believe.

I agree with "people who do not believe in God don't believe in hell either". That sums it up well, because if they did believe they would instantly repent and be saved. But they don't have the gift of belief

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God elect are no better than anyone else, God would have been righteous and just if He left all of us in our sin as He did with the reprobate. But in His mercy He chose to save some, that shows that He is a merciful and loving God

thats not mercy my friend, you may think it is, But no on in their right mind would say a man who went and found a bunch of sick broken people who were in desperate need and were dying, and had the capacity to save everyone, only chose to save some, and rejected others, bases solely on his decision and will.

as you said earlier, we are born dead, we did not chose to be dead, kin the same token, those people the man found were born with the disease they were not in a position they could help themselves. they could only make it worse.

now if the man offered to everyone the gift of salvation (he had that ability) and only 1/4 of the people believed he could save them and chose to allow him to save them, then the 3/4 of people who rejected him because they did not believe he could save them, they either thought they did not need saved or could still save themselves. they have no one to b=lame but themselves. The man is still glorified, because he CHOSE to give of himself to save them also. His hands are clean.

 

[Danny1988]

Because some have faith, and some want nothing to do with it.



Does that mean God has not worked on them, shared his word to them, and used you or others to expose them to the light so they can see?

No.



Again, this is a typical Calvinist response, which is nonsense, I know people who are smarter than me, In fact, a jewish pharisee could quote the OT verbatim, does that mean he should have been saved, and not me?

how smart a person does not make a person savable. His heart is what has to be changed, and only God can work though himself and others and circumstances of life to bring that person to faith, Again, People respond differently, whaty may work for you may not work for me, God knows. because he knows us.




Calvin swung and missed, He was so fearful of taking any credit for himself. he reacted that thought that even our free will decision to say yest to God was a work, sadly, he brought alot of people with him.

what is the answer? Jesus gave us the answer

the proud pharisee praised God he was not like the tax collector. he was smarter, loved God, had less sin, even after jesus exposed his sin,

the tax collector. He took what God showed him, and sought after God, which God said whoever does, he will show them his truth, and came to the point he was broken, because like paul he considered any good deeds or things he had as useless.. showing he truly repented.

Who did Jesus say went home saved? the smart righteous pharisee who refused to acknowledge how broken he was, ? or the humble broken sinner?

The one who had the gift of faith went home justified, that's what we Calvinists believe

 

[Danny1988]

thats not mercy my friend, you may think it is, But no on in their right mind would say a man who went and found a bunch of sick broken people who were in desperate need and were dying, and had the capacity to save everyone, only chose to save some, and rejected others, bases solely on his decision and will.

as you said earlier, we are born dead, we did not chose to be dead, kin the same token, those people the man found were born with the disease they were not in a position they could help themselves. they could only make it worse.

now if the man offered to everyone the gift of salvation (he had that ability) and only 1/4 of the people believed he could save them and chose to allow him to save them, then the 3/4 of people who rejected him because they did not believe he could save them, they either thought they did not need saved or could still save themselves. they have no one to b=lame but themselves. The man is still glorified, because he CHOSE to give of himself to save them also. His hands are clean.

I still believe God is sovereign over all things including who will be saved, we don't pretend to understand why God saves some and leaves others dead in their sins. It's a mystery, He may reveal it to us when we receive our glorified bodies and minds

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The one who had the gift of faith went home justified, that's what we Calvinists believe

well God offered the gift to both, thats what calvanist do not understand.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

That pharisee, was unwilling

Yet Jesus wanted to gather him also.

 

[shrume]

I agree with "people who do not believe in God don't believe in hell either". That sums it up well, because if they did believe they would instantly repent and be saved. But they don't have the gift of belief

Belief is not a gift.

The gift is salvation, given when people hear the gospel and decide to believe it, something anyone can do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I still believe God is sovereign over all things including who will be saved,

He is, and in his soverign will he is abe to chose to allow free will. What your doing is limiting what God can do, He is able to do whatever he wishes.

we don't pretend to understand why God saves some and leaves others dead in their sins. It's a mystery, He may reveal it to us when we receive our glorified bodies and minds

Paul said the mystery has been revealed. we can know. If you do not want to know. thats fine, and your loss, But jesus said we do know

and its simple

he who believes is not condemned

he who does not believe is condemned already.

it does not say he who God quickened so they can believe is not condemned, and he who God never quickened and left them to be dead is condemned already.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Belief is not a gift.

The gift is salvation, given when people hear the gospel and decide to believe it, something anyone can do.

I think faith is a gift, What could we have faith in if God did not do the work of the cross. Of the conviction of our sins, of giving us the word, of giving us the people he put in our lives to help us learn, of all he did, so we can be saved.

The gift of faith is the offer of salvation to begin with.

 

[Danny1988]

well God offered the gift to both, thats what calvanist do not understand.

Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

That pharisee, was unwilling

Yet Jesus wanted to gather him also.

For whatever reason, we believe the pharisee didn't have what it takes to believe. We also believe that nothing happens by accident in Gods universe, so the only way to deal with that fact is to say everything is Gods will