Predestination or free will?

Jimbone · Jun 19, 2018

I am a slave of Christ because He saved me, He picked me up, He healed me, He granted me repentance, and He made me a new creation, reborn, and now capable of truly loving God, truly seeking Him, and bringing His name glory through the work of His Spirit now indwelt inside me. It was all by Him, through Him, and for His glory, at least in my case, in my experience, and to the best of my understanding of His word. I praise our great God, and am still in complete awe that He would and could save someone as wretched as me, then use me for the kingdoms sake, the whole thing is completely beyond amazing. The closer He draws me, the better I get to know Him, the more I understand that broken wretched men was all He ever had to work with, yet He still loved us enough to think we were worth the cross. I thank and praise our great God in Jesus name, amen.

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MarkWilliams · Jun 20, 2018

preston39 said:

I don't see the conflict there.

A true believer is a slave of Christ, there's no way around that fact.

You can't serve two masters, you can't serve sin and serve Christ. Only a false Christian can serve both.

It's a very basic and easy to understand Bible truth, I don't know how you managed to get it so wrong

Deade · Jun 20, 2018

MarkWilliams said:

You are right, of course, but we are willing bondman to Christ because of the weakness of our flesh. If we wake up tomorrow and give ourselves choices, we will probably choose wrongly. No, I have to put myself in servitude to Christ Jesus in order to endure.

That means everything has to align with God's word or I don't do it. If you love anything of this world more than you love our Lord, that very thing will be used for your downfall. Satan is very good at his job.

preston39 · Jun 21, 2018

Geeeesch....during the slave era of the U S ...could a slave walk away at his whim...no.........then ask a christian if he can walk away from Christ. ...his answer is ...yes.
Compare the answers and you will see why ...slave...not only is a negative connotation against Christ but is just a wrong reference. For slave to be a proper reference...Christ would have to be/act as a dictator.....He is not.

theanointedsinner · Jun 26, 2018

Deade said:

I'm still wondering how if God knows how I will apply my free will, how is it still free? does free will have to be so free, it's free-r than what God's omniscience can possibly know? if not, I don't understand free wil

Danny1988 · Jun 26, 2018

theanointedsinner said:

Most of us struggle with predestination and election opposed to free will to choose if we believe or not.

You can use the Bible to argue both of these opposing views. I have to admit it's still a mystery to me, so I just accept that God has not revealed the truth about this question to me yet. He may reveal it to me one day, but even if He doesn't it won't change anything about my relationship with the Father.

I am very curious to know why some are saved while others are not, I knew some very good people who passed away but they never believed. I just can't understand why they rejected the Gospel, it's the best news a person could ever hear yet some good people don't believe it.

I lean towards God's election rather than free choice, because the same Gospel is presented to everyone equally, yet some accept it while others reject it. What causes some to accept it and some to reject it, were they born with a particular predisposition.

Jimbone · Jun 26, 2018

theanointedsinner said:

The thing about this is, first of all God is beyond our full understanding, so any explanation will fall short. God is not bound by time, right? He created time/space/matter, so by very definition cannot not be bound by any of them the way we are. We do have a will, but honestly don't really see it as exactly a "free will", because whether we are in Adam or in Christ we are bound by our natures, but that aside we do have a choice, and just because God already knows that choice does not mean we didn’t make the choice.

I don’t find that a hard concept to grasp, but again I can’t possibly fully comprehend what “outside of time” truly means as I am bound by it. As far as free will goes, I once heard an illustration I really liked. Say you have a vulture in a room, you go in and set a bowl of raw meat and a bowl of carrots in front of him. You hold him back for a second and tell him how good those carrots are for him. You just let him know they’re really tasty, and these things are going to help your health and eyesight, they’re just so darn good. When you let him go 100 out of 100 times he’s going for the meat, because he is bound by his nature. Same test, but this time with a rabbit, and you tell him how beneficial eating meat is, and how it will improve brain function and increase his energy. 100 or of 100 times the rabbit, by nature, will go to the carrots. I think that we are bound by our natures in much the same way, yes we always have choice, but are wills are bound by our sin nature, or we are reborn and bound in Christ. Praise God.

That’s how I have come to see and understand it anyway, for what is worth.

so-jesus-e-deus · Jun 26, 2018

"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; " (Rom 3.9).

If everyone is slave of the sin, therefore "Free Will" don't exist. Did you already see a slave that is free?

Danny1988 · Jun 26, 2018

Jimbone said:

The thing about this is, first of all God is beyond our full understanding, so any explanation will fall short. God is not bound by time, right? He created time/space/matter, so by very definition cannot not be bound by any of them the way we are. We do have a will, but honestly don't really see it as exactly a "free will", because whether we are in Adam or in Christ we are bound by our natures, but that aside we do have a choice, and just because God already knows that choice does not mean we didn’t make the choice.

I don’t find that a hard concept to grasp, but again I can’t possibly fully comprehend what “outside of time” truly means as I am bound by it. As far as free will goes, I once heard an illustration I really liked. Say you have a vulture in a room, you go in and set a bowl of raw meat and a bowl of carrots in front of him. You hold him back for a second and tell him how good those carrots are for him. You just let him know they’re really tasty, and these things are going to help your health and eyesight, they’re just so darn good. When you let him go 100 out of 100 times he’s going for the meat, because he is bound by his nature. Same test, but this time with a rabbit, and you tell him how beneficial eating meat is, and how it will improve brain function and increase his energy. 100 or of 100 times the rabbit, by nature, will go to the carrots. I think that we are bound by our natures in much the same way, yes we always have choice, but are wills are bound by our sin nature, or we are reborn and bound in Christ. Praise God.

That’s how I have come to see and understand it anyway, for what is worth.

If we are like that vulture and choose our natural choice "sin" 100% of the time, how then is anyone saved?

Jimbone · Jun 26, 2018

Danny1988 said:

Ephesians 2:8-9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

tourist · Jun 26, 2018

Danny1988 said:

The thing is that we know that it is wrong to chose sin over obeying God. That is the choice that is to be made. You can chose death through sin or life in Jesus Christ. God does know how everything played out, even before He created the universe but while He knows our destiny we are not pre-destined to reject the salvation of Jesus dying on the cross for the remission of ours sins. This is the free-will choice that each of us must make, we can chose life or we can chose death, we cannot chose both. Our eternal destiny is based on the choice that was made. I pray that all chose wisely because it is God's will and desire for none to perish but for all to have everlasting life in His presence.

theanointedsinner · Jun 26, 2018

Danny1988 said:

Most of us struggle with predestination and election opposed to free will to choose if we believe or not.

You can use the Bible to argue both of these opposing views. I have to admit it's still a mystery to me, so I just accept that God has not revealed the truth about this question to me yet. He may reveal it to me one day, but even if He doesn't it won't change anything about my relationship with the Father.

I am very curious to know why some are saved while others are not, I knew some very good people who passed away but they never believed. I just can't understand why they rejected the Gospel, it's the best news a person could ever hear yet some good people don't believe it.

I lean towards God's election rather than free choice, because the same Gospel is presented to everyone equally, yet some accept it while others reject it. What causes some to accept it and some to reject it, were they born with a particular predisposition.

I also wonder if there are different types and levels of free will, as in, could God make human free will more likely to be saved instead of less likely?

Deade · Jun 26, 2018

Jimbone said:

You have hit the nail on the head Jimbone. Because of our sinful natures, if we wake up every day and have to renew our commitment and walk with Christ, one day we may choose wrongly. Therefore we must make this promise to ourselves: I will not give myself a decision tomorrow or any other day to serve or not serve Christ. I will fix my heart right now to always serve Christ.

Psa. 108:1 "A Song or Psalm of David. O God, my heart is fixed; I will sing and give praise, even with my glory."

Let's all fix our hearts to serve God always.

theanointedsinner · Jun 26, 2018

Deade said:

so many wisdom to learn! is there any way to organize them all?

and also,
self - pride = whatever remaining desires we may have
so how do we give up sinful desires if pride is guarding it
and, if we realize our humility, how, if sinful desires say to you "are you sure you want to give it up?"

Nehemiah6 · Jun 26, 2018

so-jesus-e-deus said:

Even slaves who are not free have free will. Even sinners who are slaves to sin have a conscience, and do exercise their conscience freely.

preston39 · Jun 26, 2018

There is no such animal as ......predestination....... by G-d. There is nothing in scriptures which supports the conclusion that we are predestined...in any form.
We are allowed free will to choose our destination.

John146 · Jun 26, 2018

preston39 said:

Once you believed upon the gospel of Jesus Christ unto salvation, you were immediately predestined for the adoption which is the redemption of the body (Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:23). That's biblical predestination. It's a beautiful doctrine for the believer in Christ. But first, you must be in Christ. We cannot allow Calvinists to redefine God's word. Allow God's word to define itself.

Metternich · Jun 26, 2018

calibob said:

God predestines the elect but he does not predestine the reprobate. That would make God the author of sin. For example it was Judas' fault and not God's that he went to hell.

preston39 · Jun 26, 2018

John146 said:

Once you believed upon the gospel of Jesus Christ unto salvation, you were immediately predestined for the adoption which is the redemption of the body (Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:23). That's biblical predestination.

You are modifying the basic definition of...predestination.
Predestination , by definition, is something we would not be able to control. But, in your revised definition....upon believing in Christ...it is revised...and no longer predestination.

It's a beautiful doctrine for the believer in Christ. But first, you must be in Christ. We cannot allow Calvinists to redefine God's word. Allow God's word to define itself.

J....,

Belief in predestination is worse than....Calvinism (just a hunch), RCC, etc., in my opinion.

It is not sound biblical doctrine.

OstrichSmiling · Jun 26, 2018

calibob said:

I think it is the paradox. God gave us free choice but not free will. God predestined all things for his glory.

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