Predestination or free will?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#161
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#161
OstrichSmiling said:
God gave us free choice but not free will
Click to expand...
What good is free choice without free will? And why should free will even be an issue, since that is precisely how God created Man? Sinners must freely choose to obey the Gospel after they have been convicted and convinced by the Holy Spirit. God will compel no one to be saved, but He does present us with the awful consequences of failing to believe the Gospel.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
#162
#162
sometimes my mind wonder about hypothetical things, like what if hypothetically no one believe the gospel like ever. Then everyone choose to reject salvation, and God knows that everyone will go to a bad place (in this hypothetical situation) so why would God create even Adam and Eve in the first place (if the possibility of this hypothetical situation can happen) where zero people go to heaven, in that situation, if that's the way free will is, then why create anyone in the first place, knowing the final result of free will
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#163
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#163
Jimbone said:
Ephesians 2:8-9 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
Click to expand...
The free choice crowd conveniently avoid this and many other scriptures which support election. The Bible teaches us to believe the whole counsel of God, not just cherry pick the bits we like, as they do.

Jesus Himself never preached a woks based salvation, so I don't know how why so many get it wrong
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#164
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#164
John146 said:
Once you believed upon the gospel of Jesus Christ unto salvation, you were immediately predestined for the adoption which is the redemption of the body (Ephesians 1:5, Romans 8:23). That's biblical predestination. It's a beautiful doctrine for the believer in Christ. But first, you must be in Christ. We cannot allow Calvinists to redefine God's word. Allow God's word to define itself.
Click to expand...
That doesn't explain those who's names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
#165
#165
Danny1988 said:
That doesn't explain those who's names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world
Click to expand...
written in the book of life before the foundation of the world<-- say what? we won't be able to do jack-um anything to it
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#166
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
#166
Metternich said:
God predestines the elect but he does not predestine the reprobate. That would make God the author of sin.
Click to expand...
The above statement is unclear to me.

If God predestines the elect, what other "destination" is there for those who are not predestined as "elect"?

How can God predestine the elect yet not predestine the reprobate?
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#167
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,673
113
#167
Danny1988 said:
That doesn't explain those who's names were written in the book of life before the foundation of the world
Click to expand...
Do you realize some names are "blotted" from the book of life?

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
#168
#168
theanointedsinner said:
written in the book of life before the foundation of the world<-- say what? we won't be able to do jack-um anything to it
Click to expand...
Mr. Danny, would you like to explain what I failed to understand about what you are trying to say?
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#169
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#169
reneweddaybyday said:
Do you realize some names are "blotted" from the book of life?

Exodus 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
Click to expand...
There are 2 books, one was for His chosen people Israel and the other was for the new testament believers of which Jesus said He would lose none
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#170
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#170
theanointedsinner said:
Mr. Danny, would you like to explain what I failed to understand about what you are trying to say?
Click to expand...
The entire Biblical doctrine of predestination and election. There are entire books on this Biblical truth, I'm sure you are aware of our position
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
#171
#171
Danny1988 said:
The entire Biblical doctrine of predestination and election. There are entire books on this Biblical truth, I'm sure you are aware of our position
Click to expand...
I'm guessing, 5-point calvinist, but for limited atonement, who is doing the limiting

is it God because God is mightier than man
or, is it man, just because God allows man?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#172
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#172
Danny1988 said:
There are 2 books, one was for His chosen people Israel and the other was for the new testament believers of which Jesus said He would lose none
Click to expand...
There can only be one Book of Life, since God sees all His redeemed people as one group. While it is not called the Lamb's Book of Life in the OT, it is still the same book.

It would appear that all humanity is written in that book (since all men are created in the image of God), and as people fail to (or refuse to) believe God and believe on the Lamb of God, and choose sin and evil or goodness and righteousness through faith, their names are removed (blotted out) of the Book of Life.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#173
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#173
Danny1988 said:
The free choice crowd conveniently avoid this and many other scriptures which support election.
Click to expand...
The gift of God is eternal life (Eph 2:8,9), and it is for WHOSOEVER WILL receive it. So that automatically cancels election for salvation.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#174
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#174
Nehemiah6 said:
The gift of God is eternal life (Eph 2:8,9), and it is for WHOSOEVER WILL receive it. So that automatically cancels election for salvation.

And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev 22:17)
Click to expand...
We can't take verses of scripture in isolation. If I applied them without considering the other 70% which say the salvation is a gift, I would go along with you. But I need to deal with all the scriptures, which deal with the topic and apply them according to their context.
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#175
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#175
theanointedsinner said:
I'm guessing, 5-point calvinist, but for limited atonement, who is doing the limiting

is it God because God is mightier than man
or, is it man, just because God allows man?
Click to expand...
I believe everything is preordained, because God is sovereign over all things including who will be saved. To say otherwise means that God is weak and unable to save the whole world as many here are suggesting He wants to do.

If God want's to do something He will do it, no matter what the obstacles are.
 
T

theanointedsinner

Guest
#176
#176
Danny1988 said:
I believe everything is preordained, because God is sovereign over all things including who will be saved. To say otherwise means that God is weak and unable to save the whole world as many here are suggesting He wants to do.

If God want's to do something He will do it, no matter what the obstacles are.
Click to expand...
why did God only preordained some, but not all?
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#177
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#177
Danny1988 said:
We can't take verses of scripture in isolation. If I applied them without considering the other 70% which say the salvation is a gift, I would go along with you. But I need to deal with all the scriptures, which deal with the topic and apply them according to their context.
Click to expand...
So we both agree that salvation is a gift. And Scripture consistently says that it is a gift to "whosoever believeth".
 
D

Danny1988

Active member
#178
Jun 24, 2018
410
124
43
#178
Nehemiah6 said:
So we both agree that salvation is a gift. And Scripture consistently says that it is a gift to "whosoever believeth".
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree with you. Except I would add that "whosoever believeth" is a gift as well. To believe is given only to his elect, the others will never believe because a carnal person finds faith in God to be foolishness
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#180
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,771
113
#180
Danny1988 said:
Yes, I agree with you. Except I would add that "whosoever believeth" is a gift as well. To believe is given only to his elect, the others will never believe because a carnal person finds faith in God to be foolishness
Click to expand...
That is NOT what the Bible reveals. Please read and study Romans 10, which also says "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by THE WORD OF GOD".

Also, please see my new thread "John Chapter 3 REFUTES Five Point Calvinism.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.