-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
you didn't state that the Commandment to subdue the Earth was not part of what Abraham and all mankind received as God's universal law.
But since I had asked specifically for things in biblical order, and you didn't address this, I figured you did not consider it a commandment.
So is it a commandment, or is it not?
I believe the context shows what we are to subdue
Genesis 1: 26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
fish Birds cattle whatnot
But since I had asked specifically for things in biblical order, and you didn't address this, I figured you did not consider it a commandment.
So is it a commandment, or is it not?
I believe the context shows what we are to subdue
Genesis 1: 26. And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
fish Birds cattle whatnot
9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
I don't think it was written so we would tame animals. But you are I see the scriptures very differently.
10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
I don't think it was written so we would tame animals. But you are I see the scriptures very differently.
Studyman,
I'm not speculating because I'm not saying whether or not Abraham kept the Sabbath by not doing physical work on it.
To say that he did or did not would be speculation, unless there's a Bible verse I'm unaware of.
Whenever I hear a question like why did God do that, I'm always reminded that God's ways are not like our ways.
Whether God did or did not tell Abraham not to do physical work on the Sabbath, I believe it is not recorded in the scripture. So, I don't know If Abraham did it or not.
I'm not speculating because I'm not saying whether or not Abraham kept the Sabbath by not doing physical work on it.
To say that he did or did not would be speculation, unless there's a Bible verse I'm unaware of.
Whenever I hear a question like why did God do that, I'm always reminded that God's ways are not like our ways.
Whether God did or did not tell Abraham not to do physical work on the Sabbath, I believe it is not recorded in the scripture. So, I don't know If Abraham did it or not.
Jesus is the Word which became Flesh, All things were created by Him, including the Laws and Commandments, and the Sabbath of God. So these Commandments are the Commandments of Jesus the Christ. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
Abraham did have Christ's Laws and Commandments. That is not speculation, that is God's Word.
Abraham didn't pick and choose which of Christ's Commandments he thought were worthy of his respect, and which ones he didn't. God gave Him instruction and he obeyed. And for this the Word of God says he was blessed. This is also the Word of God, no speculation.
And Christ did create a Sabbath. He sanctified it, separated it from other days and made it Holy. This is not speculation, it is the Word of God.
And Christ did include His Sabbath in the Commandments of God that David called "Righteousness". This is the Word of God, not speculation.
And Jesus said this Sabbath was created for man. And Abraham was a man. Jesus didn't say the Sabbath was created for men born after a specific time, or with a specific DNA. This is also the Word of God, not Speculation.
You and I also have God's Commandments. This is truth, not speculation.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
Abraham obeyed the Christ and in turn, the Christ manifested Himself to Abraham as He Promised. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Zechariahs also honored the Christ by obeying His Commandments and he also knew Jesus when He came. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
The Mainstream preachers of Christ's time rebelled against His Commandments and didn't follow them. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
The Pharisees didn't know Jesus when He came. This is also the Word of God, no speculation.
So you can preach that Abraham didn't have God's Sabbath that He created for man if you want.
What we do know is whatever commandments and Laws Abraham had from God, he obeyed them and the mainstream preachers had God's commandments and they didn't obey them. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
Are we to have the "Faith" of Abraham? Or the "works" of the mainstream preachers of His time?
Abraham did have Christ's Laws and Commandments. That is not speculation, that is God's Word.
Abraham didn't pick and choose which of Christ's Commandments he thought were worthy of his respect, and which ones he didn't. God gave Him instruction and he obeyed. And for this the Word of God says he was blessed. This is also the Word of God, no speculation.
And Christ did create a Sabbath. He sanctified it, separated it from other days and made it Holy. This is not speculation, it is the Word of God.
And Christ did include His Sabbath in the Commandments of God that David called "Righteousness". This is the Word of God, not speculation.
And Jesus said this Sabbath was created for man. And Abraham was a man. Jesus didn't say the Sabbath was created for men born after a specific time, or with a specific DNA. This is also the Word of God, not Speculation.
You and I also have God's Commandments. This is truth, not speculation.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
Abraham obeyed the Christ and in turn, the Christ manifested Himself to Abraham as He Promised. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Zechariahs also honored the Christ by obeying His Commandments and he also knew Jesus when He came. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
The Mainstream preachers of Christ's time rebelled against His Commandments and didn't follow them. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
The Pharisees didn't know Jesus when He came. This is also the Word of God, no speculation.
So you can preach that Abraham didn't have God's Sabbath that He created for man if you want.
What we do know is whatever commandments and Laws Abraham had from God, he obeyed them and the mainstream preachers had God's commandments and they didn't obey them. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
Are we to have the "Faith" of Abraham? Or the "works" of the mainstream preachers of His time?
Do you care whether a passover lamb is burned up or eaten, or whether your personal interpretations match scripture or not?
Colossians 1:24-27
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Colossians 1:24-27
Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
I have been more than completely honest and open with you about why I believe the way I do, including my belief that God is interested in us "subduing our worldly mind" more than trees and animals and rocks and I posted one scripture regarding Cain where I believe this intent is shared with us.
This has all been about justifying your religious tradition of rejecting some of God's Laws. It is obvious you don't agree with the arguments I put forward, compelling as they are. I see no reason to continue this seemingly endless questions and inquisition given you pretty much ignore the reasons I give for my understanding anyway. It seems even if I do give more scriptures which support my belief that God is more interested in our minds than He is in rocks and trees and dirt, that you will just move on to another question, and on and on and on. The discussion seems pretty much one sided.
You and I see the scriptures differently.
I'm fine with that.
This has all been about justifying your religious tradition of rejecting some of God's Laws. It is obvious you don't agree with the arguments I put forward, compelling as they are. I see no reason to continue this seemingly endless questions and inquisition given you pretty much ignore the reasons I give for my understanding anyway. It seems even if I do give more scriptures which support my belief that God is more interested in our minds than He is in rocks and trees and dirt, that you will just move on to another question, and on and on and on. The discussion seems pretty much one sided.
You and I see the scriptures differently.
I'm fine with that.
Jesus is the Word which became Flesh, All things were created by Him, including the Laws and Commandments, and the Sabbath of God. So these Commandments are the Commandments of Jesus the Christ. This is the Word of God, not speculation.
I simply posted my understand of this Biblical truth. If your Jesus didn't create "All things", that certainly explains why you and I disagree about His Word.
I simply posted my understand of this Biblical truth. If your Jesus didn't create "All things", that certainly explains why you and I disagree about His Word.
While Abraham could have known as well as Adam surely did that God would redeem His creation and bring forth salvation, "Passover" didn't occur until over 400 years after Abraham, in the Exodus.
In Genesis 15:13-14 God informs Abraham that his descendents will be in bondage in a foreign land but that He will bring them out and punish that land, but He doesn't say Egypt and doesn't give the details of the 10th plague.
In Genesis 15:13-14 God informs Abraham that his descendents will be in bondage in a foreign land but that He will bring them out and punish that land, but He doesn't say Egypt and doesn't give the details of the 10th plague.
-
1
- Show all
But that is the same argument you make regarding the "LAW" that was ":ADDED" 430 years after Abraham. You say that because Paul says "Law" he must be speaking about every law that God ever gave His People. I argue that God has His Law, given to Abraham and Noah, and their Children, and that He "added" a Priesthood, given to the Levites that was compiled of "Works" performed for the remission of sin, "till the Seed should Come". A "Law of Works" that Abraham didn't have.
I have asked before, what was this "ADDED" Law "ADDED" to? What was being transgressed that prompted God to "ADD" a " Law of Works"?
I have asked before, what was this "ADDED" Law "ADDED" to? What was being transgressed that prompted God to "ADD" a " Law of Works"?
-
1
- Show all
I believe you misunderstand what I am saying.
yes, Jesus is the word made flesh. yes he made all things including the laws and Commandments.
Abraham had laws from God. The question is, which ones?
Yes Abraham did not pick n choose which Commandments to keep.
yes God separated the 7th day.
yes the Sabbath was made for man, and Abraham was a man.
Yes Christ's day was seen by Abraham.
yes Zachariah recognized Jesus.
Yes the Pharisees did not recognize Jesus.
now we come to the really good part
That's correct, the above paragraph is not speculation. What is speculation is saying that Abraham did not do physical work on the Sabbath.
why the question? Because it appears that in the early part of the old Testament especially, the laws were given over time. for example the commandment not to eat blood with animal meat probably wasn't given to Adam. Do you think Adam was commanded not to eat meat with blood in it?
it also looks like Abraham is not given the commandment to be physically circumcised until he is very old, because he is not physically circumcised has a young man. since we know that Abraham kept God's laws that he had and he wasn't circumcised until he was an old man he must not have had the commandment to be physically circumcised until he was old.
we can also see that when God tells humans not to eat blood he speaks to them. and we also see that in Genesis 2 wear God sanctifies the Sabbath, there is no report of God speaking to humans. this leads me to question whether God commanded Adam to keep the Sabbath. and since I don't know for sure, if I were to say one way or the other for sure, that would be speculation.
this is why I think it would be good for you to list scripture references for all the Commandments in God's Universal law given to Abraham and all mankind in the order that they appear in the scriptures. Then we could see that a glance how this all works for you. how many verses do you think it would be?