Obedience, Oh No!

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Paul also did not write "the law" where he was talking about not being justified by the law of Moses in verse 28. Also in verses 20 and 21. So we know the absence of 'the' does not make 'law' mean something other than 'the law of Moses'.

It's impossible to make the plain words go away: In context, the 'law' that is upheld by faith is the law of Moses. I'm done with making the Bible not really mean what it says in order to protect a predetermined doctrine. I was called out on it, realized the deceitful error I was making, and quit doing it. The church has done much damage to the Christian faith by doing this. I've stopped making my contribution toward that ends. I'm simply not going to do it anymore. The passage says faith upholds the law of Moses and that settles it.

Paul is referring to the type of law (Romans 3:27). Of works (i.e., effort)? No, a law of faith.

It's impossible to accept your interpretation considering the facts that Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:7 that GOD made void (καταργέω) the 10 commandments and then in Romans 3:31 asks if we make void (καταργέω) the law, and says no. So there's a real contradiction there that you need to address. How can we establish (not make void) something that GOD made void? Paul is either contradicting himself, or Romans 3:31 means something different than what you think, because 2 Corinthians 3:7 is crystal clear..

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

WINNER WINNER CHICKEN DINNER!

And now I have a question. How do I follow Christ's law to not hate?

Listen to the voice of the holy spirit in your heart and obey it.

 

[Ralph-]

Paul is referring to the type of law (Romans 3:27). Of works (i.e., effort)? No, a law of faith.

It's impossible to accept your interpretation considering the facts that Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:7 that GOD made void (καταργέω) the 10 commandments and then in Romans 3:31 asks if we make void (καταργέω) the law, and says no. So there's a real contradiction there that you need to address. How can we establish (not make void) something that GOD made void? Paul is either contradicting himself, or Romans 3:31 means something different than what you think, because 2 Corinthians 3:7 is crystal clear..

The 10 Commandments as a ministration of death is what has been made void by faith in Christ. Obviously, 'do not murder' has not been made void. In fact, Paul even says in Romans 13 that 'love your neighbor as yourself' fulfills the Ten Commandments, not makes them go away as though voided by faith:

9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law (of Moses-look at the commandments he just listed)."-Romans 13:9-10

See? The 10 Commandments did not go away and made void by faith in Christ. Once again we see Paul saying faith fulfills and upholds the law of Moses. He even lists some of them. The 10 Commandments as the ministry of death to you is what has been made void. In Christ, the law of Moses can no longer condemn you to the just and eternal death of the law breaker. Once again, read the passage (2 Corinthians 3:6-11).

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Love God? (Another command in the law of Moses we are to uphold by our faith. In fact, the greatest of all commands).

No, don't do that!


HRFTD said this and it is completely true:

If one follows Christ's law - do not hate - then one will fulfill the righteousness demanded by "do not murder". On the other hand, if one follows "do not murder", yet hates in his heart, he has not done the righteousness required by Christ. So the effectual law is "do not hate".

So I agreed with his post. Who wouldn't? It's the truth.
But then the question becomes: okay, but HOW do I not hate?
You say: by loving God.
So now I ask: How do I love God? Do I just try really really hard to love God so that I will not hate/murder?

 

[Ralph-]

And now I have a question. How do I follow Christ's law to not hate?

As an aside, you (and I and all of us) have to get over ourselves.

Why do we think another person who does evil things to us deserves to be hated and despised for those things when we also have done evil things to people? God opened my understanding years ago to make me realize that hating a person is judging that person.

How can we judge another person for being evil (by hating them and holding a grudge against them for being evil) when we also have been evil? We can't of course. We condemn ourselves when we do that. We have treated people wrong and God has forgiven our failure in this regard, so we should forgive others for their failure, too, and not pass judgment on them by hating them. The bottom line is, the person who can't pass along the forgiveness they have received has forgotten the depth of forgiveness they themselves have received. Peter talks about this in 2 Peter 1.

 

[Ralph-]

But then the question becomes: okay, but HOW do I not hate?
You say: by loving God.
So now I ask: How do I love God? Do I just try really really hard to love God so that I will not hate/murder?

Try really really hard to remember what God has done for you in your wickedness.

Yeah, I know.....easy to say, not so easy to do.

Just trying to help.

 

[Studyman]

="SpoonJuly, post: 3636059, member: 267443"],

Rightly dividing the Word of Truth does not make one a promoter of heresy , nor did I say that.
As for as the hypothetical question you asked, If you believe on must keep the Law as given to Israel ANY violation, including NOT bringing a goat for sacrifice is breaking the Law and is sin.
If one believes one must follow the Law as given to Israel, you must abide by all the ordinances including the animal sacrifices or you are not following the Law. YOU CAN NOT PICK AND CHOOSE.

Didn't The Law foretell of a time when the Priesthood given by Moses would change? If I was following the Commandments given to Israel, was Jeremiah not sent to Israel? Was Isaiah sent to Israel? How is it picking and choosing, or a sin to believe the Prophesy about the Messiah and the change of the Priesthood?

Duet. 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Jer. 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If Moses commanded us to "Hearken" to the prophet, and the Word which became Flesh tells us of this change in the Priesthood "After those days" how would it be a sin for me to believe and follow this teaching?

It seems like the Pharisees were the ones who didn't believe Moses, or his instructions to "Hearken". It seems like it was the Pharisees who didn't believe in the promised "change of the Priesthood".

If they were "following the Letter of the Law" as "many" who come in Christ's name preach the Pharisees were doing, why didn't they believe Moses and Jeremiah regarding the Prophet and the change in the Priesthood?

If you believe on must keep the Law as given to Israel ANY violation, including NOT bringing a goat for sacrifice is breaking the Law and is sin.

Moses said God would raise up a Prophet that we shall hearken to. But the Pharisees didn't hearken to Him, they killed Him, just like they persecuted Jeremiah and killed many other Prophets that God sent to them. Truly Jesus must be right, and your preaching wrong regarding the Pharisees. Surely the Pharisees didn't believe in the writing of Moses as Jesus stated.

Did Jesus believe in His own Promise in Jer. 31, of the "changed" Priesthood? How many goats did He kill when He healed people or forgave their sins? Since He didn't follow the Law of Moses where the Levitical Priesthood is concerned, then according to your own preaching, He sinned. He did follow the Law and Prophets perfectly didn't He? Isn't that the very reason He qualified to pay your death penalty?

I truly don't understand where you guys get the preaching from that the Pharisees were trying to Follow God's Laws. I know it is central to your religion, but it goes against everything the Bible teaches about them. Sure, they said it was the Law of Moses, but Jesus told us they "SAY" but do not. Shall I hearken to Him on this, or reject Him Words as did the Mainstream Preachers of His time.

If the Pharisees had followed God's Commandments as you all preach, wouldn't they have known Jesus like Zechariahs and Abraham did?

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

It would be great if you would want to have an open, honest discussion about these issues. But you call it is waste of time.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Paul is referring to the type of law (Romans 3:27). Of works (i.e., effort)? No, a law of faith.

It's impossible to accept your interpretation considering the facts that Paul said in 2 Corinthians 3:7 that GOD made void (καταργέω) the 10 commandments and then in Romans 3:31 asks if we make void (καταργέω) the law, and says no. So there's a real contradiction there that you need to address. How can we establish (not make void) something that GOD made void? Paul is either contradicting himself, or Romans 3:31 means something different than what you think, because 2 Corinthians 3:7 is crystal clear..

2 Cor 3:7 doesn't say God made void the 10 commandments...

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Listen to the voice of the holy spirit in your heart and obey it.

Mmmm...that doesn't help me...I don't understand the answer here. Not trying to argue, just saying I don't understand your answer.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Try really really hard to remember what God has done for you in your wickedness.

Yeah, I know.....easy to say, not so easy to do.

Just trying to help.

So try really hard to remember what God has done for me and that gratefulness will make me not murder in anger and resentment in my heart?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

The 10 Commandments as a ministration of death is what has been made void by faith in Christ. Obviously, 'do not murder' has not been made void. In fact, Paul even says in Romans 13 that 'love your neighbor as yourself' fulfills the Ten Commandments, not makes them go away as though voided by faith:

Your adding to the word. 2 Corinthians 3:7 does not say as a (ministration of death). It specifically calls the 10 commandments the ministration of death (which is done away).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Mmmm...that doesn't help me...I don't understand the answer here. Not trying to argue, just saying I don't understand your answer.

Do you understand what it is to hear the holy spirit?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

2 Cor 3:7 doesn't say God made void the 10 commandments...

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9

That translation has added words that are not there and confuses the meaning. The Greek literally says "the ministry of death in letters carved in stone" and then says at the end of the sentence that it was made void/useless/obsolete (transitory in your translation).

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

As an aside, you (and I and all of us) have to get over ourselves.

Why do we think another person who does evil things to us deserves to be hated and despised for those things when we also have done evil things to people? God opened my understanding years ago to make me realize that hating a person is judging that person.

How can we judge another person for being evil (by hating them and holding a grudge against them for being evil) when we also have been evil? We can't of course. We condemn ourselves when we do that. We have treated people wrong and God has forgiven our failure in this regard, so we should forgive others for their failure, too, and not pass judgment on them by hating them. The bottom line is, the person who can't pass along the forgiveness they have received has forgotten the depth of forgiveness they themselves have received. Peter talks about this in 2 Peter 1.

This I absolutely agree with. That part of the verse that says "without cause," the Spirit explained it to me in just this way you have said.
That "without cause" part is tricky. If someone is really hateful and mean to me (like in a thread in here ) I think I have cause to be angry at them. BUT, if I have ever been hateful and mean to anyone in my own life (and of course I have), where is it that I have cause?? God has forgiven me for my anger and mean hatefulness toward someone else and then I will not freely give what I have been given?
So if I will not forgive them and will be angry without cause (which is to have already murdered them!), this is having my debt forgiven and then going out with joy, debt free, finding another man who owes me, and then refusing to forgive HIS debt.

 

[Studyman]

L...,

I wish not to bust bubbles...but, grace is not a law. Grace is extended to us.... by which.... we are forgiven for our trespasses. (grace was extended to us for forgiveness under the new covenant...New Testament.......because we can not .....earn that right).
Am I missing something in your thought?

Grace is not a Law for us. Only God can provide the atonement of sins. But Mercy, Faith and Judgment are Laws for us.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

It seems that without repentance there is no Grace. So Grace is a free gift to those who repent. And who shall be the one who grants repentance? God is the only one who can grant repentance?

Eph. 2:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; (The First and Greatest Commandment of God) and that (Grace) not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of (Mans) works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship,(Bought with a price) created in Christ Jesus unto good works, (worthy of repentance) which God (Word which became Flesh) hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Word which became Flesh also says the same thing through Jeremiah.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD (Word which became Flesh), Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, (Before ordained by God) where is the good way, (worthy of repentance) and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.

Unfortunately His Path is narrow.

But they said, We will not walk therein.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Do you understand what it is to hear the holy spirit?

Yes...
But even when the Holy Spirit teaches me the spirit of the word about murder (which you have a firm grasp on also ), I have heard Him and I'm very happy to know the spirit of the words. But just understanding the spirit of the word does not make me be a doer and I find myself still being resentful/angry/murdering people. I know what He wants but can't seem to find how to DO what He wants. And the harder I try to obey, the worse it becomes for me. And then I'm miserable because I've tried so hard to keep the law to not murder now that I truly understand it but keep failing!

Where have I gone wrong?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes...
But even when the Holy Spirit teaches me the spirit of the word about murder (which you have a firm grasp on also ), I have heard Him and I'm very happy to know the spirit of the words. But just understanding the spirit of the word does not make me be a doer and I find myself still being resentful/angry/murdering people. I know what He wants but can't seem to find how to DO what He wants. And the harder I try to obey, the worse it becomes for me. And then I'm miserable because I've tried so hard to keep the law to not murder now that I truly understand it but keep failing!

Where have I gone wrong?

And to have a man tell me I'm free from the law and not under the law is of NO HELP TO ME. He is telling me I can ignore Jesus' teaching on the spirit of the law to not murder??

 

[SpoonJuly]

="SpoonJuly, post: 3636059, member: 267443"],



Didn't The Law foretell of a time when the Priesthood given by Moses would change? If I was following the Commandments given to Israel, was Jeremiah not sent to Israel? Was Isaiah sent to Israel? How is it picking and choosing, or a sin to believe the Prophesy about the Messiah and the change of the Priesthood?

Duet. 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

Jer. 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If Moses commanded us to "Hearken" to the prophet, and the Word which became Flesh tells us of this change in the Priesthood "After those days" how would it be a sin for me to believe and follow this teaching?

It seems like the Pharisees were the ones who didn't believe Moses, or his instructions to "Hearken". It seems like it was the Pharisees who didn't believe in the promised "change of the Priesthood".

If they were "following the Letter of the Law" as "many" who come in Christ's name preach the Pharisees were doing, why didn't they believe Moses and Jeremiah regarding the Prophet and the change in the Priesthood?



Moses said God would raise up a Prophet that we shall hearken to. But the Pharisees didn't hearken to Him, they killed Him, just like they persecuted Jeremiah and killed many other Prophets that God sent to them. Truly Jesus must be right, and your preaching wrong regarding the Pharisees. Surely the Pharisees didn't believe in the writing of Moses as Jesus stated.

Did Jesus believe in His own Promise in Jer. 31, of the "changed" Priesthood? How many goats did He kill when He healed people or forgave their sins? Since He didn't follow the Law of Moses where the Levitical Priesthood is concerned, then according to your own preaching, He sinned. He did follow the Law and Prophets perfectly didn't He? Isn't that the very reason He qualified to pay your death penalty?

I truly don't understand where you guys get the preaching from that the Pharisees were trying to Follow God's Laws. I know it is central to your religion, but it goes against everything the Bible teaches about them. Sure, they said it was the Law of Moses, but Jesus told us they "SAY" but do not. Shall I hearken to Him on this, or reject Him Words as did the Mainstream Preachers of His time.

If the Pharisees had followed God's Commandments as you all preach, wouldn't they have known Jesus like Zechariahs and Abraham did?

John 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

It would be great if you would want to have an open, honest discussion about these issues. But you call it is waste of time.

Again you refer to my religion and presume you know what is central to that religion.
As I stated before, I do not have a religion. I do not follow a religion. I am a child of God. I follow the commandments and teachings of Jesus.
I never said the Pharisees were trying to keep the Law.
What I said was that the Pharisees were constantly dogging Jesus looking for Him to violate the Law that they themselves were not keeping.
That is why I have compared some today to the Pharisees
They are teaching we must keep the Law when they do not keep it themselves.
I have tried as best as I can to explain what I believe, but you seem to just be looking for a way do disagree.
Where have I been dishonest and not open in what I believe?
And yes, it is a waste of time with some here. They do not discuss, just preach.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yes...
But even when the Holy Spirit teaches me the spirit of the word about murder (which you have a firm grasp on also ), I have heard Him and I'm very happy to know the spirit of the words. But just understanding the spirit of the word does not make me be a doer and I find myself still being resentful/angry/murdering people. I know what He wants but can't seem to find how to DO what He wants. And the harder I try to obey, the worse it becomes for me. And then I'm miserable because I've tried so hard to keep the law to not murder now that I truly understand it but keep failing!

Where have I gone wrong?

I think you need to have counsel with your heart when that happens to try to understand what you are trying to accomplish by hating and being resentful. In other words, instead of trying to obey "DO NOT HATE!" admit your hatred/resentment, defend it if necessary, and then with a conscience towards GOD ask yourself "What does this accomplish?" You will probably hear your heart say, "I'm hurt". The holy spirit will be there to help you. Be honest.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And to have a man tell me I'm free from the law and not under the law is of NO HELP TO ME. He is telling me I can ignore Jesus' teaching on the spirit of the law to not murder??

I hope you don't interpret my words when I say we are not under the law of Moses to mean that we are not under law at all. We are under law to Christ.