Obedience, Oh No!

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Yes, and that's what I was trying to get you to see.

The law of Moses did not go away. We uphold it in the NEW WAY of the Spirit, not in the old way of the written word itself (Romans 7:6).

"6But now, by dying to what once bound us (the flesh), we have been released from the law (to keep us bound to the flesh) so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code."-Romans 7:6

"there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law (of Moses-see vs.28)."-Romans 3:30-31

I disagree with your interpretation of Romans 3:31 and it's application to the law of Moses. I've explained this to you before.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I do.

I was hoping to get you to see that it's not a matter of what law believers keep but rather HOW we keep the law.

I disagree that we even keep the law of Moses. We keep the law of Christ, which satisfies the law of Moses.

 

[Latour]

Grace is the new law. It is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. It is the law that overcomes sin. Like the law of flight that overcomes the law of gravity.

The difference between now and then is that then the law was a tutor that could discipline its students, and now the law is no longer a tutor that can discipline because it has led us to Christ, and we are no longer under a tutor.

But do you know what that means??? Again it is easy to make up sentences that get from the bible. But understanding is RARE!

 

[Ralph-]

No one obeys the law...

No, it's not that believers don't keep the law, because all you have to do is respond correctly in a given situation according to the law and you have kept it. What you are arguing is that no one keeps the law so as to earn a justification of righteousness.

Big difference. And certainly, no one here is even remotely suggesting we earn justification by keeping the law. Everyone knows that is impossible. But it is entirely possible to keep the law. I do it everyday in various situations, don't you? And when I don't I have the forgiveness of Christ to remove the guilt incurred. Don't you?

, the law proves our sin, that was its purpose.

It's interesting how you keep ignoring the fact that Paul said it's useful for teaching and instruction in righteousness. And how James uses the law to explain to believers how they are to act as believers. Instead of acknowledging what they say, you continue to insist it's only good for proving you sin. If that were true, James would not use the law to teach the church how to live.

 

[Ralph-]

I disagree that we even keep the law of Moses. We keep the law of Christ, which satisfies the law of Moses.

So we are back to my question then:

How do we differentiate between 'love your neighbor as yourself' in the law of Moses, and 'love your neighbor as yourself' in the law of Christ?

Of course, they are one and the same law. What is different is HOW we keep it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So we are back to my question then:
How do we differentiate between 'love your neighbor as yourself' in the law of Moses, and 'love your neighbor as yourself' in the law of Christ?
Of course, they are one and the same law. What is different is HOW we keep it.

We differentiate by knowing that one is a commandment in law that has passed away while the other is law that remains. It's like having a body of law that Congress abolishes, yet extracts one things from it to make a new law. We don't concern ourselves with the old law except maybe for educational purposes.

 

[Ralph-]

I disagree with your interpretation of Romans 3:31 and it's application to the law of Moses. I've explained this to you before.

It's right there in plain words. Faith in Christ upholds/establishes the law of Moses. No interpretation needed. Unless one wants to make it not mean what it plainly says.

Perhaps the fear of letting it mean what it plainly says comes from not taking into consideration that upholding the law of Moses does not mean keeping it to the literal letter of the law in all cases. Example: the law of sacrifice for sin.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

It's right there in plain words. Faith in Christ upholds/establishes the law of Moses. No interpretation needed. Unless one wants to make it not mean what it plainly says.

Perhaps the fear of letting it mean what it plainly says comes from not taking into consideration that upholding the law of Moses does not mean keeping it to the literal letter of the law in all cases. Example: the law of sacrifice for sin.

I actually looked at it in the Greek and went a bit deeper than just face value. There's a contradiction there (on the surface) that you are unable to answer.

 

[Ralph-]

We differentiate by knowing that one is a commandment in law that has passed away while the other is law that remains. It's like having a body of law that Congress abolishes, yet extracts one things from it to make a new law. We don't concern ourselves with the old law except maybe for educational purposes.

Very illogical:

"love your neighbor as yourself" - old, done away with, abolished law. Now only used for educational purposes.

"love your neighbor as yourself" - new law that we keep.

It's obvious that it's the exact same law in both cases.

The thing I've been leading you to realize is we don't keep a new law. We keep the same law but now in the new way of the Spirit. That means we keep the exact same laws we did before (do not murder, do not steal, love your neighbor, don't show favoritism, etc.) but now in the new way of the power of the Holy Spirit, not in the powerlessness of our fleshly inability.

We don't need to invent a 'new' law to explain how we are not 'under' the law anymore, yet still have to keep the law.

 

[Ralph-]

I actually looked at it in the Greek and went a bit deeper than just face value. There's a contradiction there (on the surface) that you are unable to answer.

Notice Paul did not say 'keep'. That would imply the literal letter of the law. He said 'uphold'.

Faith in Christ, and walking in that grace, does no violence to the law of Moses. It does not destroy the law of Moses. Faith does not violate any law of Moses. It certainly dismisses some literal keeping of the law, but faith in Christ in no way destroys or tramples down the requirements of the law of Moses. Faith upholds the requirements of the law of Moses.

 

[SpoonJuly]

I asked a question of you.

"So if I don't bring a goat to the Levite Priest for atonement of my sins, I am just as guilty as if I murdered my neighbor?"

You answered.

If you believe that one must keep the Law as given to Israel through Moses,, yes.
Both are sin and breaking the Law.

But the Law and Prophets say over and over that God desired obedience, not sacrifice, and He gave us a promise of the New Covenant that I posed in reply to your post.

How is it a sin to follow the Law and the Prophets in regards to the Priesthood? If I or Paul or Jesus wasn't following the Law and the Prophets, how would they even know about the New Covenant and what it is?

And to be honest, I did say I wasn't interested in this law or that law, rather, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Does that make me a promoter of "Hersey" in your religion?

,

Rightly dividing the Word of Truth does not make one a promoter of heresy , nor did I say that.
As for as the hypothetical question you asked, If you believe on must keep the Law as given to Israel ANY violation, including NOT bringing a goat for sacrifice is breaking the Law and is sin.
If one believes one must follow the Law as given to Israel, you must abide by all the ordinances including the animal sacrifices or you are not following the Law. YOU CAN NOT PICK AND CHOOSE.

Jesus fulfilled the Law and gave us a better way to live and serve Him.
We are to do as Jesus taught, commanded.
The book of Hebrews was written to believers that wanted to go back to the Law.
Paul was confronted time and time again by the Judaizers who were teaching that the Law must be followed.
Jesus was confronted time and time again by the Pharisees.
It is no different today. The Judaizers and Pharisees are alive and well on this forum.

You keep referring to my religion, I do not have a religion, I am a child of God by the blood of Christ.
My belief is based on rightly dividing the Word of God, not on what men, churches, books, or videos teach.

It is obvious I am wasting my time here with people who are blinded to the truth, so I will leave you to your false understanding.

 

[Ralph-]

But do you know what that means??? Again it is easy to make up sentences that get from the bible. But understanding is RARE!

We are in a time of a famine of the word of God. Like in the days of one young Samuel (1 Samuel 3:1). We have an abundance of the written words of God (just as they had the written word of God), but little breath of spiritual understanding in those words. Ear tickling doctrines of men rule the church at this time in history. Truth is far, far in the minority. But it is available to anyone who wants it. We just have to be honest about what we read in the Bible and stop exalting our so-called leaders in the church and what they market to the masses for personal notoriety and financial gain.

 

[Ralph-]

,
If one believes one must follow the Law as given to Israel, you must abide by all the ordinances including the animal sacrifices or you are not following the Law. YOU CAN NOT PICK AND CHOOSE.

You mean like how the church has cherry picked what laws it's going to keep. And then defends that by saying it's a 'different' law that we are to keep.

Paul was confronted time and time again by the Judaizers who were teaching that the Law must be followed.

....for the purpose of JUSTIFICATION. This is the point you and the church fail to understand.

Their sin was not that they wanted believers to keep the law. Their sin is that they wanted us to do that for the purpose of JUSTIFICATION. And nobody in this thread is even remotely suggesting that is why we believers must keep the law of Moses.

You keep referring to my religion, I do not have a religion

You don't realize that your version of Christianity, inherited from our early church fathers, is not the religion Jesus died to institute among his people. It's a man made religion and the Catholic Church itself will tell you that.

If you knew church history, and would quit taking teachers at their word without checking what they say against the actual words and context of the scriptures (like a good Berean), you'd see that Christianity for the most part as we know it today is a man-made invention. The early Catholic Church leadership is who decided that any and all Sabbath keeping (for example) is categorically and without exception you trying to earn a declaration of justification and that you are to keep new laws of worship. And so that is how the church instantly reads and interprets the passages in the Bible about the law.

You think that keeping the law of Moses is sinning because you have been taught that, not because that's what the Bible actually says. Mosaic law keeping is ONLY wrong if you do it with the express purpose of earning God's declaration of right standing with him. But the church has taught us that keeping the law of Moses for any reason at all is sinning. Take those blinders off and you'll see for yourself that is NOT what the Bible teaches.

 

[SpoonJuly]

You mean like how the church has cherry picked what laws it's going to keep. And then defends that by saying it's a 'different' law that we are to keep.



....for the purpose of JUSTIFICATION. This is the point you and the church fail to understand.

Their sin was not that they wanted believers to keep the law. Their sin is that they wanted us to do that for the purpose of JUSTIFICATION. And nobody in this thread is even remotely suggesting that is why we believers must keep the law of Moses.



You don't realize that your version of Christianity, inherited from our early church fathers, is not the religion Jesus died to institute among his people. It's a man made religion and the Catholic Church itself will tell you that.

If you knew church history, and would quit taking teachers at their word without checking what they say against the actual words and context of the scriptures (like a good Berean), you'd see that Christianity for the most part as we know it today is a man-made invention. The early Catholic Church leadership is who decided that any and all Sabbath keeping (for example) is categorically and without exception you trying to earn a declaration of justification and that you are to keep new laws of worship. And so that is how the church instantly reads and interprets the passages in the Bible about the law.

You think that keeping the law of Moses is sinning because you have been taught that, not because that's what the Bible actually says. Mosaic law keeping is ONLY wrong if you do it with the express purpose of earning God's declaration of right standing with him. But the church has taught us that keeping the law of Moses for any reason at all is sinning. Take those blinders off and you'll see for yourself that is NOT what the Bible teaches.

You really are full of self righteousness aren't you.
You know what my church teaches, who teaches me, how I came to my understanding.
Well you are quite the liar.
You are the one who promotes the writers of church history.
You are the on who believes these men.

As for as keeping the Law of Moses, no man other than Jesus has kept the Law of Moses.
If you say you do, put me on record as calling you a liar to your face.
Proverbs tells us that God hates liars.

You are one sick puppy.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

....for the purpose of JUSTIFICATION. This is the point you and the church fail to understand.

Their sin was not that they wanted believers to keep the law. Their sin is that they wanted us to do that for the purpose of JUSTIFICATION. And nobody in this thread is even remotely suggesting that is why we believers must keep the law of Moses.

That's incorrect. The gentiles were already justified by faith. The pharisees said they had to observe the law of Moses to be saved. The Jerusalem council said they were to do no such thing.

... thou thyself [Paul] also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. Acts 21:24-25​

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Very illogical:

"love your neighbor as yourself" - old, done away with, abolished law. Now only used for educational purposes.

"love your neighbor as yourself" - new law that we keep.

It's obvious that it's the exact same law in both cases.

The thing I've been leading you to realize is we don't keep a new law. We keep the same law but now in the new way of the Spirit. That means we keep the exact same laws we did before (do not murder, do not steal, love your neighbor, don't show favoritism, etc.) but now in the new way of the power of the Holy Spirit, not in the powerlessness of our fleshly inability.

We don't need to invent a 'new' law to explain how we are not 'under' the law anymore, yet still have to keep the law.

That's totally incorrect. The law of Moses was more than that one commandment. You could keep that one commandment perfectly and still be put to death under the law of Moses for violating other things, e.g., sabbaths. So they are obviously not the same laws.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You mean like how the church has cherry picked what laws it's going to keep. And then defends that by saying it's a 'different' law that we are to keep.

John called it a new commandment.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We are in a time of a famine of the word of God. Like in the days of one young Samuel (1 Samuel 3:1). We have an abundance of the written words of God (just as they had the written word of God), but little breath of spiritual understanding in those words. Ear tickling doctrines of men rule the church at this time in history. Truth is far, far in the minority. But it is available to anyone who wants it. We just have to be honest about what we read in the Bible and stop exalting our so-called leaders in the church and what they market to the masses for personal notoriety and financial gain.

What both of you two appear to be promoting hasn't worked very well. Exalting the 10 commandments is what churches have done in the US for many decades. What we're seeing now with the lawless grace doctrines is an over-reaction to the churches' hypocrisy of promoting the 10 commandments while living like hypocrites. I don't see what you guys are teaching is any different.

 

[Ralph-]

John called it a new commandment.

"7Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining"-1 John 2:7-8

An old commandment which is has now become new in revelation.

No new law here. Just a new revelation of that old law.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

"7Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard. 8On the other hand, I am writing a new commandment to you, which is true in Him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true Light is already shining"-1 John 2:7-8
An old commandment which is has now become new in revelation.
No new law here. Just a new revelation of that old law.

You keep confusing commandments with law. That commandment is not the law of Moses even though it is a very small part of it.