Christian holidays vs Biblical holidays

[posthuman]

One given to Moses for the atonement of sins.

oddly ((?)) this doesn't say anything about the purpose of God's covenant with the people being "for atonement"

The Lord your God commands you this day to follow these decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with all your soul. You have declared this day that the Lord is your God and that you will walk in obedience to him, that you will keep his decrees, commands and laws — that you will listen to him. And the Lord has declared this day that you are his people, his treasured possession as he promised, and that you are to keep all his commands. He has declared that he will set you in praise, fame and honor high above all the nations he has made and that you will be a people holy to the Lord your God, as he promised.
(Deuteronomy 26:16-19)​

vv. 18-19 lay out God's declared purpose and promise in making this covenant. that Israel be His people, which He will bless.

similarly "atonement" or "forgiveness" is not mentioned anywhere in Deuteronomy 28:1-14 where the blessings God promises for keeping the covenant are proclaimed.

neither when God personally tells Moses the reason and promise of the covenant at Sinai:

"This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”
(Exodus 19:3-6)
​

nothing about atonement. the actual Bible says something very different about the purpose of the Sinai covenant.
that it is about separating the people of Israel from all the other nations ((e.g. Gentiles))

we should all be careful that our private, pharasetic, human, religious traditions don't blind us to what the text actually says lest we sacrilegiously insert them into the scripture where they in reality are not found.

Jesus reveals to us that all the scripture is a testimony about Him, and He is salvation, having given Himself for atonement. but in this case, His covenant with Abraham is also about salvation just as much as His covenant with Noah and all the earth and His promises as He pronounced the curse of the Serpent: all scripture is about Him and equally about atonement as much as any other, if one would try to argue that the Laws purpose is atonement this way. it is not any more about atonement than Samson carrying off the gates of Gaza are: both are testifying of Christ.

 

[posthuman]

TLDR version:

One given to Moses for the atonement of sins.

It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. ​

(Hebrews 10:4) ​

 

[gb9]

oddly ((?)) this doesn't say anything about the purpose of God's covenant with the people being "for atonement"

The Lord your God commands you this day to follow these decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with all your soul. You have declared this day that the Lord is your God and that you will walk in obedience to him, that you will keep his decrees, commands and laws — that you will listen to him. And the Lord has declared this day that you are his people, his treasured possession as he promised, and that you are to keep all his commands. He has declared that he will set you in praise, fame and honor high above all the nations he has made and that you will be a people holy to the Lord your God, as he promised. ​

(Deuteronomy 26:16-19)​

vv. 18-19 lay out God's declared purpose and promise in making this covenant. that Israel be His people, which He will bless.

similarly "atonement" or "forgiveness" is not mentioned anywhere in Deuteronomy 28:1-14 where the blessings God promises for keeping the covenant are proclaimed.

neither when God personally tells Moses the reason and promise of the covenant at Sinai:

"This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.” ​

(Exodus 19:3-6) ​

​

nothing about atonement. the actual Bible says something very different about the purpose of the Sinai covenant.
that it is about separating the people of Israel from all the other nations ((e.g. Gentiles))

we should all be careful that our private, pharasetic, human, religious traditions don't blind us to what the text actually says lest we sacrilegiously insert them into the scripture where they in reality are not found.

Jesus reveals to us that all the scripture is a testimony about Him, and He is salvation, having given Himself for atonement. but in this case, His covenant with Abraham is also about salvation just as much as His covenant with Noah and all the earth and His promises as He pronounced the curse of the Serpent: all scripture is about Him and equally about atonement as much as any other, if one would try to argue that the Laws purpose is atonement this way. it is not any more about atonement than Samson carrying off the gates of Gaza are: both are testifying of Christ.

now post, you know that studyman has a teacher's edition of the Bible. his edition says things that normal Bibles do not. his has special footnotes that interpret Scripture in a very special way, where he is always right.

 

[Studyman]

let's start here,
The scriptures teach that Abraham had God's Laws.

I agree that Abraham had laws from God that he followed (though some not so well).

what laws do you feel Abraham had? please be specific, for example:
Abraham had the Ten Commandments, and the law against eating blood in animal flesh.

That is a good question.

We know Abraham listened and obeyed when God gave him a charge. In other words, whatever the Commandment was, Abraham obeyed from the heart. Did he make mistakes as all men, sure. But when He had a Commandment from God, he honored it with obedience.

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So we know Abraham had God's Commandments, Statutes and His Laws. Whatever they were, Abraham was given a promise "Because" he followed them. I guess it really doesn't matter to me if they were the same as God's Laws in the rest of His Word, or if they were different. When Abraham heard them, he didn't just "hear" them, He obeyed them.

It seems Jesus gave this same teaching to us all.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Abraham had His Commandments, as by Him were "all things created". And Abraham not only had them as do you and I, but Abraham strived to "obey" them as the Christ instructed us all to do. And as He promised, Jesus "manifested Himself" to Abraham because of this obedience, also called "Faith".

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

There is one Law Abraham didn't have though. This we can be sure of given the scriptures. Levi wasn't even born until years later. The Levitical Priesthood with it's ceremonial and sacrificial "works of the Law" were not added until 430 years after Abraham.

So I can't say if the Laws of God for Abraham was the same as the Laws of God in the rest of the Bible. I can believe the scriptures which say God doesn't change, and that the Word which became Flesh is the same with Abraham as He was with Peter and He will be at the end of time.

All I know for sure is whatever God's Laws are, Abraham honored God by obeying them, and he was blessed because of it. Jesus instructed me to obey them as well, whatever they are. This can not be denied.

And I know for a certainty that Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood that was "ADDED" (To God' s Laws I assume) because of transgression ( "Of God's Laws I assume") 430 years later.

So Abraham wasn't justified by the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" which didn't exist in his time. He was justified because He believed in God enough to follow His instructions and the Bible calls this action "Faith".

 

[Studyman]

TLDR version:

It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. ​

(Hebrews 10:4) ​

Exactly.

Heb. 7:
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

The Priesthood, that was Added 430 years after Abraham, was for the Levites only. Jesus was from the tribe of Judah. Therefore, it was "NECESSARY" to change the Law so that someone other than a Levite could hold the High Priests office. Why?

Because: "It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins."

This Law was to lead them to Christ, which these "Works of the Law" Symbolized. Once we find the Savior and understand these things symbolized His Life, Death and resurrection, we no longer need the "tutor".

 

[Studyman]

="posthuman, post: 3635149, member: 170505"]
oddly ((?)) this doesn't say anything about the purpose of God's covenant with the people being "for atonement"

The Lord your God commands you this day to follow these decrees and laws; carefully observe them with all your heart and with all your soul. You have declared this day that the Lord is your God and that you will walk in obedience to him, that you will keep his decrees, commands and laws — that you will listen to him. And the Lord has declared this day that you are his people, his treasured possession as he promised, and that you are to keep all his commands. He has declared that he will set you in praise, fame and honor high above all the nations he has made and that you will be a people holy to the Lord your God, as he promised. ​

(Deuteronomy 26:16-19​

)​

​

Gen. 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
4 So Abram departed, as the LORD had spoken unto him;

God's Covenant with Abraham being shared with Abrahams Children as promised. Where in Jer. 31 did God say he would change God's Covenant with Abraham? Of course you will not answer.

vv. 18-19 lay out God's declared purpose and promise in making this covenant. that Israel be His people, which He will bless.

similarly "atonement" or "forgiveness" is not mentioned anywhere in Deuteronomy 28:1-14 where the blessings God promises for keeping the covenant are proclaimed.

neither when God personally tells Moses the reason and promise of the covenant at Sinai:

Duet. 28 is about the Levitical Priesthood, it's about God Covenant with Abraham's Children.

"This is what you are to say to the

descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”

(Exodus 19:3-6) ​

​

​

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

​

Same Promise/ Covenant as Abraham.​

​

Ex. 2:​

23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage. (You would say this was because they were "under" God's Law)
24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

nothing about atonement. the actual Bible says something very different about the purpose of the Sinai covenant.
that it is about separating the people of Israel from all the other nations ((e.g. Gentiles))

God's Covenant with Abraham was about "Separating him from the other nations"

"Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:"

But as Paul said, God "ADDED" a Law, till the Seed should come.

Lev. 4:
20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
21 And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him as he burned the first bullock: it is a sin offering for the congregation.
22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;
23 Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:
24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.
25 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.

26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

I'm sorry Post, I don't know who is writing these posts for you but they reject so much of the Bible. To say God didn't create a Priesthood with sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement of sins is out there, even for you.

Why can't you accept the truth about this "ADDED" Priesthood Law Abraham didn't have?

 

[posthuman]

I'm sorry Post, I don't know who is writing these posts for you but they reject so much of the Bible. To say God didn't create a Priesthood with sacrificial "Works of the Law" for atonement of sins is out there, even for you.

the presence of sacrifices and offerings in the Law does not make the purpose of the Sinai covenant "atonement"
you were wrong to say it is.

i tell you the truth, so you misdirect, and slander me.
as you always have.
that's sad, dude.

 

[Studyman]

the presence of sacrifices and offerings in the Law does not make the purpose of the Sinai covenant "atonement"
you were wrong to say it is.

i tell you the truth, so you misdirect, and slander me.
as you always have.
that's sad, dude.

Why am I wrong? Because your preacher says so? Where is the promise of the new covenant changing anything other than the duties of the Priesthood mentioned?

Jer. 31:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;


After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Who is this Post? Whose Law is He talking about here. And before "Those Days" how were we to find "His Law"? Was it not administered by the Levites according to the Priesthood created by the Word and given to the them? Would you please just answer a couple of questions and show me with God's Word where I am in error. Before Jesus, Was there any other way to hear about God except through the Priesthood? If so, please show me the scriptures.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Before "Those Days" how was sin atoned for according to the word of God, the Law? Was it not by the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law". Did the Word which became Flesh not create a "Priesthood" which foreshadowed His sacrifice?

Before Jesus came, how were sin's atoned for according to the Bible?

Where does this promised Covenant change, alter, amend, or otherwise annul any of God's Commandments?

Will you deflect and change the subject again, then accuse me of slander? Or will you show the very least of courtesies and for once, answer the relevant questions I have posed to you?

 

[posthuman]

Why am I wrong? Because your preacher says so?

because the Bible says the purpose of the Sinai covenant is something different than atonement, as i've showed you already.

Will you deflect and change the subject again

all of this has been your own deflection from a simple fact:

in the past, God commanded a physical, material rite be performed on a certain day by human hands.
in the present, that is no longer commanded, and God instead performs a spiritual equivalent of it by His own hands.
it is something that has nothing to do with priesthood. nothing to do with sin offering. it is something that predates the Law and the promise and the declaration of righteousness predate it. it's a picture of something, and the physical carrying out of this rite at its appointed time has become 'nothing' and can even become a blasphemy against Christ's work. it's extraordinary!

i suspect you don't like the implications of this fact. i can't think of why else you'd respond with all kinds of immaterial arguments, slander, baseless accusations and venomous speech.

i wish you'd search the scripture for Jesus instead of looking for Satan under every rock.

He who diligently seeks good seeks favor, ​

but he who seeks evil, evil will come to him. ​

(Proverbs 11:27) ​

 

[Dan_473]

That is a good question.

We know Abraham listened and obeyed when God gave him a charge. In other words, whatever the Commandment was, Abraham obeyed from the heart. Did he make mistakes as all men, sure. But when He had a Commandment from God, he honored it with obedience.

5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

So we know Abraham had God's Commandments, Statutes and His Laws. Whatever they were, Abraham was given a promise "Because" he followed them. I guess it really doesn't matter to me if they were the same as God's Laws in the rest of His Word, or if they were different. When Abraham heard them, he didn't just "hear" them, He obeyed them.

It seems Jesus gave this same teaching to us all.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Abraham had His Commandments, as by Him were "all things created". And Abraham not only had them as do you and I, but Abraham strived to "obey" them as the Christ instructed us all to do. And as He promised, Jesus "manifested Himself" to Abraham because of this obedience, also called "Faith".

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

There is one Law Abraham didn't have though. This we can be sure of given the scriptures. Levi wasn't even born until years later. The Levitical Priesthood with it's ceremonial and sacrificial "works of the Law" were not added until 430 years after Abraham.

So I can't say if the Laws of God for Abraham was the same as the Laws of God in the rest of the Bible. I can believe the scriptures which say God doesn't change, and that the Word which became Flesh is the same with Abraham as He was with Peter and He will be at the end of time.

All I know for sure is whatever God's Laws are, Abraham honored God by obeying them, and he was blessed because of it. Jesus instructed me to obey them as well, whatever they are. This can not be denied.

And I know for a certainty that Abraham didn't have the Levitical Priesthood that was "ADDED" (To God' s Laws I assume) because of transgression ( "Of God's Laws I assume") 430 years later.

So Abraham wasn't justified by the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" which didn't exist in his time. He was justified because He believed in God enough to follow His instructions and the Bible calls this action "Faith".

"All I know for sure is whatever God's Laws are, Abraham honored God by obeying them, and he was blessed because of it. Jesus instructed me to obey them as well, whatever they are. This can not be denied."

am I understanding you right about this, Studyman?

you feel that you are to keep the same laws that Abraham kept. and that this is very important.
but you don't know what they are?

 

[Studyman]

because the Bible says the purpose of the Sinai covenant is something different than atonement, as i've showed you already.



all of this has been your own deflection from a simple fact:

in the past, God commanded a physical, material rite be performed on a certain day by human hands.
in the present, that is no longer commanded, and God instead performs a spiritual equivalent of it by His own hands.
it is something that has nothing to do with priesthood. nothing to do with sin offering. it is something that predates the Law and the promise and the declaration of righteousness predate it. it's a picture of something, and the physical carrying out of this rite at its appointed time has become 'nothing' and can even become a blasphemy against Christ's work. it's extraordinary!

i suspect you don't like the implications of this fact. i can't think of why else you'd respond with all kinds of immaterial arguments, slander, baseless accusations and venomous speech.

i wish you'd search the scripture for Jesus instead of looking for Satan under every rock.

He who diligently seeks good seeks favor, ​

but he who seeks evil, evil will come to him. ​

(Proverbs 11:27) ​

You have a lot of words Post, but you refuse to even acknowledge or discuss the many scriptures I post which bring your religious doctrines into question. I ask questions, you ignore them and change the subject, over and over and over.

I went to the very Word of the Christ which explain His New Covenant quite directly and you refuse to even acknowledge the scripture. No discussion, no answers, nothing.

I have asked nicely, harshly, gently, aggressively but your response is the same every time. No discussion, no answers, nothing but your religious views, a verse here and there and deflection.

Now this is fine with me. I don't chase you around this forum and reply to your religious statements all the time.

If you can't or won't discuss the Bible honestly and openly, then don't reply to my posts. Because very time you do I will be posting scriptures and attempting to have open honest discussions about them.

 

[posthuman]

He hath shewed thee, o man, what is good;
and what doth the LORD require of thee,
but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?​

(Micah 6:8)

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing,
seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things ​

(Acts 17:25)​

​

A time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.
(John 4:23-24) ​

​

Neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
(Galatians 6:15)​

​

i reckon it's important not to bark up the wrong tree
((or mountain, as it were))

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
(Romans 14:5-9)​

​

​

​

​

 

[Studyman]

"All I know for sure is whatever God's Laws are, Abraham honored God by obeying them, and he was blessed because of it. Jesus instructed me to obey them as well, whatever they are. This can not be denied."

am I understanding you right about this, Studyman?

you feel that you are to keep the same laws that Abraham kept. and that this is very important.
but you don't know what they are?

I think my post actually answered you question.

"So we know Abraham had God's Commandments, Statutes and His Laws. Whatever they were, Abraham was given a promise "Because" he followed them. I guess it really doesn't matter to me if they were the same as God's Laws in the rest of His Word, or if they were different. When Abraham heard them, he didn't just "hear" them, He obeyed them."

Many assume the Word which became Flesh gave Abraham's Children different Laws that He gave to Abraham. Other than the Levitical Priesthood which was "ADDED" 430 years later, I find no Biblical evidence to support this assumption. As a result of the evidence, I believe God's Laws, with the exception of the Priesthood, were given to Adam and Eve, and all mankind and were re-instated through Moses as it is written.

Ex. 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

Jesus did manifested Himself to Abraham just as He also promised to manifest Himself to me if I do the same thing.

21 He that hath my commandments, (As did Abraham and the Pharisees) and keepeth them, (As did Abraham, but not the Pharisees) he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

So Abraham knew Jesus but the Pharisees didn't. Zechariahs, who did the "works of Abraham", also knew Jesus when He came.

Does that answer your question?

 

[gb9]

I think my post actually answered you question.

"So we know Abraham had God's Commandments, Statutes and His Laws. Whatever they were, Abraham was given a promise "Because" he followed them. I guess it really doesn't matter to me if they were the same as God's Laws in the rest of His Word, or if they were different. When Abraham heard them, he didn't just "hear" them, He obeyed them."

Many assume the Word which became Flesh gave Abraham's Children different Laws that He gave to Abraham. Other than the Levitical Priesthood which was "ADDED" 430 years later, I find no Biblical evidence to support this assumption. As a result of the evidence, I believe God's Laws, with the exception of the Priesthood, were given to Adam and Eve, and all mankind and were re-instated through Moses as it is written.

Ex. 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

Jesus did manifested Himself to Abraham just as He also promised to manifest Himself to me if I do the same thing.

21 He that hath my commandments, (As did Abraham and the Pharisees) and keepeth them, (As did Abraham, but not the Pharisees) he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

So Abraham knew Jesus but the Pharisees didn't. Zechariahs, who did the "works of Abraham", also knew Jesus when He came.

Does that answer your question?

I have a legit question- if Scripture/ language has been corrupted, as you say, then- is all of Scripture or just parts?

since there was no English language for hundreds of years , then please give a source of proper, uncorrupted translation.

what I am saying is- if it is wrong, then who discovered it was wrong, and set it right.

 

[Studyman]

posthuman, post: 3635759, member: 170505"]

He hath shewed thee, o man, what is good;

​

and what doth the LORD require of thee,​

but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?​

(Micah 6:8)​

​

Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though He needed any thing,​

seeing He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things (Acts 17:25)​

​

​

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:​

​

A time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him. God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

​

(John 4:23-24) ​

​

Neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. (Galatians 6:15)​

​

​

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

​

i reckon it's important not to bark up the wrong tree
((or mountain, as it were))

One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

​

(Romans 14:5-9)​

​

​

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

​

​

 

[Dan_473]

I think my post actually answered you question.

"So we know Abraham had God's Commandments, Statutes and His Laws. Whatever they were, Abraham was given a promise "Because" he followed them. I guess it really doesn't matter to me if they were the same as God's Laws in the rest of His Word, or if they were different. When Abraham heard them, he didn't just "hear" them, He obeyed them."

Many assume the Word which became Flesh gave Abraham's Children different Laws that He gave to Abraham. Other than the Levitical Priesthood which was "ADDED" 430 years later, I find no Biblical evidence to support this assumption. As a result of the evidence, I believe God's Laws, with the exception of the Priesthood, were given to Adam and Eve, and all mankind and were re-instated through Moses as it is written.

Ex. 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.
24 And God heard their groaning, and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob.

Jesus did manifested Himself to Abraham just as He also promised to manifest Himself to me if I do the same thing.

21 He that hath my commandments, (As did Abraham and the Pharisees) and keepeth them, (As did Abraham, but not the Pharisees) he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

So Abraham knew Jesus but the Pharisees didn't. Zechariahs, who did the "works of Abraham", also knew Jesus when He came.

Does that answer your question?

no, it doesn't answer my question in the sense that I still don't understand what laws you believe Abraham followed.

On one hand, it sounds like you're saying that it doesn't really matter what Commandments Abraham kept, as far as how we live today.

But then it also sounds like you're saying that you believe Abraham had the same laws that you have today.

I thought you were saying that the Commandments, statutes, and laws that Abraham had from God where eternal, not like the levitical priesthood laws which were temporary. but if they are eternal then they are for you today so you would know what they are

???

 

[Studyman]

I have a legit question- if Scripture/ language has been corrupted, as you say, then- is all of Scripture or just parts?

since there was no English language , then please give a source of proper, uncorrupted translation.

what I am saying is- if it is wrong, then who discovered it was wrong, and set it right.

I have never said scripture/language has been corrupted. The premise of your question is based on an untrue assumption. I have repeated the warnings of the Bible of religious men who preach falsehoods, and corrupt the Word. But the Word itself still contains "Instruction in Righteousness", in my opinion.

 

[Studyman]

="Dan_473, post: 3635898, member: 190874"]

no, it doesn't answer my question in the sense that I still don't understand what laws you believe Abraham followed.

The Word says he followed God's Laws.

On one hand, it sounds like you're saying that it doesn't really matter what Commandments Abraham kept, as far as how we live today.

But then it also sounds like you're saying that you believe Abraham had the same laws that you have today.

I find no reason to assume God was different with Abraham as He is with anyone else given the scriptures say He is no respecter of persons. I have no religious tradition to defend that would cause me to question the integrity of God's Word. I believe the Bible is clear as to what God's Laws are. No reason to assume Abraham served a different God, or that His God is different than mine.

I thought you were saying that the Commandments, statutes, and laws that Abraham had from God where eternal, not like the levitical priesthood laws which were temporary. but if they are eternal then they are for you today so you would know what they are???

I know what they are Dan, The scriptures say "God's Law, God Commandments. I have no reason to doubt or question this. He didn't identify and describe them to me until Moses. I'm OK with that as, like I said, it doesn't matter what the instruction is, rather, that we follow them as did Abraham and all examples of "faith" in the Bible.

Matt. 19:
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Are these not God's Laws?

Rom. 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. "Lev. 19:18"

Are these not God's Laws?

 

[prove-all]

Job knew about God before the Book of Genesis was written, as he said,
"I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You"
(Job 42:5).

Commandment 1:

2 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 "You shall have no other gods before Me. (Exodus 20:2-3)

The Book of Job states:

21 Blessed be the name of the LORD (Job 1:21).

28 This also would be an iniquity deserving of judgement,
For I would have denied God who is above (Job 31:28).

1 The Job answered the LORD and said: 'I know that You can do everything,
and that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You' (Job 42:1-2).

28 And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom,
and to depart from evil is understanding' (Job 28:28).

What is interesting about Job 28:28 is that Job said that this is what God said to man
and there is no record of this being said in Genesis (which is the primary biblical book
with information prior to the story of Job), thus this verse proves that God spoke to
humankind prior to Moses in at least one way that was not recorded in Genesis.

Thus this refutes the argument that none prior to Mount Sinai could have known what
the commandments were! If there were no commandments in effect, how could denying
God be an iniquity deserving of judgement?


Commandment 2:

4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image -- any likeness of anything that is
in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous
God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations
of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep
My commandments. (Exodus 20:4-6)

The Book of Job states:

27 If I have observed the sun when it shines, or the moon moving in its brightness,
so that my heart has been secretly enticed, and my mouth has kissed my hand;

28 This also would be an iniquity deserving of judgement,
For I would have denied God who is above (Job 31:27-28).

Observing of the sun and moon, whereby one is enticed, as well kissing one's own hand,
are believed by most commentators to have been practices associated with idolatry.
an iniquity deserving of judgement


Commandment 3:

7 "You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord
will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain. (Exodus 20:7)

The Book of Job states:

5 It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts (Job 1:5).

21 Blessed be the name of the LORD (Job 1:21).

9 Curse God and die! (Job 2:9).

10 In all this, Job did not sin with his lips (Job 2:10).


The third commandment is clearly shown in Job to have been understood.
It is clear that before Mount Sinai one could 'sin with his lips,' and that 'sin' was
known to exist then (after Mount Sinai, God did tell the Israelites that the people
who used to live in the land sinned by violating this command, Leviticus 18:21,27).

21And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech,
neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.

26Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit
any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that
sojourneth among you: 27(For all these abominations have the men of the land done,
which were before you, and the land is defiled [Leviticus 18:21,27


Commandment 4:

8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all
your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall
do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your
female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six
days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and
rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
(Exodus 20:8-11)


The Book of Job states:

13 So they sat down with him on the ground seven days and seven nights, and no
one spoke a word to him, for they saw that his grief was very great (Job 2:13).

Job 2:13 supports the concept that the week was being observed prior to Mount Sinai.
It is consistent with the two accounts in Genesis that a week was used as a period of
rejoicing (Gen 29:22,27-28) and grieving (Genesis 50:10).

1 Is there not a time of hard service for man on the earth (Job 7:1).

Job 7:1 supports the concept of "six days shall you labor" (Exodus 20:8)
which is part of the fourth commandment.

5 That the triumping of the wicked is short...
20 Because he knows no quietness in his heart (Job 20:5,20).

Job 20:20 supports the concept found in Hebrews 4:3-6
that those do who disobey "shall not enter My rest."

21 Now aquaint yourself with Him, and be at peace (Job 22:21).

Where as Job 22:21 supports the related concept that "we who believed do enter
that rest...There remains therefore a rest (Greek sabbitismos, 'a sabbath observance')
for the people of God" (Hebrews 4:3,9).


4 Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? (Job 38:4).

In Job 38:4, God says He 'laid the foundations of the earth' which is similar to the
concept in Exodus 20:11 'For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth,
the sea, and all that is in them'. Thus in Job we see the nearly all the concepts of the
fourth commandment.


Commandment 5:

12 "Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land
which the Lord your God is giving you. (Exodus 20:12)

The Book of Job states:

21 His sons come to honor (Job 14:21).

5 He who speaks flattery to his friends, even the eyes of his children will fail (Job 17:5).

8 But the mighty man possessed the land, and the honorable man dwelt in it (Job 22:8).

These verses support the concept that one is to be honorable, children are to honor their
father, and that the children are to become honorable, whereas the fifth commandment
says to give honor (Exodus 20:12) which implies that parents are to be honorable.

 

[prove-all]

Commandment 6:

13 "You shall not murder. (Exodus 20:13)

The Book of Job states:

14 The murderer rises with the light; He kills the poor and needy;
And in the night he's like a thief (Job 24:14).

39 If I have eaten its fruit without money, or caused its owners to lose their lives;
40 Then let thistles grow instead of wheat, and weeds instead of barley (Job 31:39-40).

These scriptures clearly support the concept that Job and his companions considered murder
to be wrong. Job 24:14 is similar to a teaching by Jesus tieing in murder and thievery together:

10 The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. (John 10:10).

Job knew of this connection thousands of years before Jesus stated it as recorded by John.


Commandment 7:

14 "You shall not commit adultery. (Exodus 20:14)

The Book of Job states:

15 The eye of the adulterer waits for the twilight, saying, 'No eye will see me';
and he disguises his face (Job 24:15).

1 I have made a covenant with my eyes; Why then should I look upon a young woman?
(Job 31:1).

9 "If my heart has been enticed by a woman, Or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door,
10 Then let my wife grind for another, And let others bow down over her. 11 For that would
be wickedness; Yes, it would be iniquity deserving of judgment. 12 For that would be a fire
that consumes to destruction, And would root out all my increase. (Job 31:9-12).

These scriptures clearly support the concept that Job and his companions knew adultery
was prohibited and an 'iniquity deserving of judgement.'


Commandment 8:

15 "You shall not steal. (Exodus 20:15)

The Book of Job states:

5 Is not your wickedness great, and your iniquity without end? 6 For you have taken pledges
from your brother for no reason, and stripped the naked of their clothing (Job 22:5-6).

14 And in the night he's like a thief (Job 24:14).

39 If I have eaten its fruit without money, or caused its owners to lose their lives;
40 Then let thistles grow instead of wheat, and weeds instead of barley (Job 31:39-40).

These scriptures clearly support the concept that Job and his companions
considered stealing to be wrong.


Commandment 9:

16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (Exodus 20:16)

The Book of Job states:

28 I would never lie to your face (Job 6:28).

15:35 They conceive trouble and bring forth futility; Their womb prepares deceit.

24:25 Now if it is not so, who will prove me a liar and make my speech worth nothing?

27:4 My lips will not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit (Job 27:4).

34:6 Should I lie concerning my right? (Job 34:6).

36:4 For truly my words are not false (Job 36:4).

These scriptures clearly support the concept that Job and his companions
considered 'bearing false witness' to be wrong.


Commandment 10:

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife,
nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything
that is your neighbor's." (Exodus 20:17)

The Book of Job states:

2 And envy slays a simple one (Job 5:2).

12 Why does your heart carry you away, and what do your eyes wink at, that you turn
your spirit against God, and let such words go out of your mouth? (Job 15:12-13).

15:1 They conceive trouble and bring forth futility (Job 15:35).

31:1 I have made a covenant with my eyes; Why then should I look upon a young woman?

9 "If my heart has been enticed by a woman, Or if I have lurked at my neighbor's door,
10 Then let my wife grind for another, And let others bow down over her. 11 For that
would be wickedness; Yes, it would be iniquity deserving of judgment. 12 For that would
be a fire that consumes to destruction, And would root out all my increase. (Job 31:9-12).

These scriptures clearly support the concept that Job and his companions considered
covetousness (or evil desire) to be wrong. Since Paul wrote, "I would not have known
sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law
had said, 'You shall not covet.' " (Rom 7:7), it is clear that the law against covetousness
must have been in effect prior to Mount Sinai.