Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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I was certainly not upset about anything. VCO just said he had his invitation to the wedding feast. I just thought I would ask if he had enough oil to join the party.
It was not an agree or disagree thing, like you say. It was not an upset thing like you say. Just a simple question?
If the foolish virgins were not saved, they would not have had an invitation to come to the wedding feast. All 10 had invitations (saved), but 5 did not do what was proper to do after they got their invitation, and therefore they lost their right to go to the wedding feast, and were told that the bridegroom did not know them.
Again, it is a nice praable about no OSAS/ES.
No anger, and if you disagree with me, so be it. You have your right to believe what you think. But I have the right to believe what I believe.
It was not an agree or disagree thing, like you say. It was not an upset thing like you say. Just a simple question?
If the foolish virgins were not saved, they would not have had an invitation to come to the wedding feast. All 10 had invitations (saved), but 5 did not do what was proper to do after they got their invitation, and therefore they lost their right to go to the wedding feast, and were told that the bridegroom did not know them.
Again, it is a nice praable about no OSAS/ES.
No anger, and if you disagree with me, so be it. You have your right to believe what you think. But I have the right to believe what I believe.
"a little different?"...
N
huh?
well i said my assurance comes from the promises of Jesus because you asked how do i know i am saved
but if youre asking why it matters that our belief system is so very very different
it is because the truth is important
and there is no "little" regarding our beliefs and how different they are
well i said my assurance comes from the promises of Jesus because you asked how do i know i am saved
but if youre asking why it matters that our belief system is so very very different
it is because the truth is important
and there is no "little" regarding our beliefs and how different they are
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All have an invitation to feast but not all will accept it.
The parable has nothing to do with OSAS/ES.
No oil to start with = no salvation to start with.
You have better verses that you have posted to back up your position.
I never said you were angry, I said you get upset. There is a big difference.
But you do get upset when you feel (as I think it comes across) that when someone challenges your theology you think they are saying you are not a believer.
And I get that, I can be the same and have been the same and alas at times will still be like that.
I have never said you do not have the right to believe what you believe.
After all I'm sure you would only post what you believe the Holy Spirit has laid on your heart.
I would assume we all do that on here.
But as I said, to me the parable has nothing to do with rejecting OSAS/ES and is pointing out that there are merely professors of faith rather than doers because of their faith. The wise virgins.
I'm entitled to believe that.
John 3:16-19
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Isaiah 55:1-3
An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.
The parable has nothing to do with OSAS/ES.
No oil to start with = no salvation to start with.
You have better verses that you have posted to back up your position.
I never said you were angry, I said you get upset. There is a big difference.
But you do get upset when you feel (as I think it comes across) that when someone challenges your theology you think they are saying you are not a believer.
And I get that, I can be the same and have been the same and alas at times will still be like that.
I have never said you do not have the right to believe what you believe.
After all I'm sure you would only post what you believe the Holy Spirit has laid on your heart.
I would assume we all do that on here.
But as I said, to me the parable has nothing to do with rejecting OSAS/ES and is pointing out that there are merely professors of faith rather than doers because of their faith. The wise virgins.
I'm entitled to believe that.
John 3:16-19
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Isaiah 55:1-3
An Invitation to Abundant Life
1 “Ho! Everyone who thirsts,
Come to the waters;
And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat.
Yes, come, buy wine and milk
Without money and without price.
2 Why do you spend money for what is not bread,
And your wages for what does not satisfy?
Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good,
And let your soul delight itself in abundance.
3 Incline your ear, and come to Me.
Hear, and your soul shall live;
And I will make an everlasting covenant with you—
The sure mercies of David.
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Sure there is. The difference is this: I believe that good works are a part of the salvation process.
You do not. Pretty much the end.
I believe by the grace of Jesus we are saved. I trust Jesus and his promises, just like you. I have faith that he is the Christ, and I worship him for his sacrifice to save me. I believe my faith is nothing but tickling symbols of brass unless my faith is accompanied by good works for the love of Jesus and for the love of mankind.
So we are really not that far apart
There is one other thing. I believe you can lose your salvation. You do not. So I have a tendancy to take stock of where I am more than you might (I don't know you that well). Jesus is also by my side to help me stay on the right path through the Holy Spirit.
So other than I believe in doing a little more good works, and I take stock of my standing a little more than you might, not a lot more differences than that.
You do not. Pretty much the end.
I believe by the grace of Jesus we are saved. I trust Jesus and his promises, just like you. I have faith that he is the Christ, and I worship him for his sacrifice to save me. I believe my faith is nothing but tickling symbols of brass unless my faith is accompanied by good works for the love of Jesus and for the love of mankind.
So we are really not that far apart
There is one other thing. I believe you can lose your salvation. You do not. So I have a tendancy to take stock of where I am more than you might (I don't know you that well). Jesus is also by my side to help me stay on the right path through the Holy Spirit.
So other than I believe in doing a little more good works, and I take stock of my standing a little more than you might, not a lot more differences than that.
Hi benhur, I believe the five virgins without oil are "pretend believers" in the Church and thus Jesus said, "I never knew you." why would Jesus tell them He never knew them? I understand you believe the 5 virgins without oil "lost their savation", thus this supports your, no OSAS/ES belief.
It must be troubling to live everyday of your Christian life not having "assurance" in the power of God to save you and to bring us home safely. I was raised in the Church believing in the "assurance" of the believer and the bible supports this belief.
"What is the meaning of the Parable of the Ten Virgins?"
Quote:
The five virgins who have the extra oil represent the truly born again who are looking with eagerness to the coming of Christ. They have saving faith and have determined that, whatever occurs, be it lengthy time or adverse circumstances, when Jesus returns, they will be looking with eagerness. The five virgins without the oil represent "false believers" who enjoy the benefits of the Christian community without true love for Christ. They are more concerned about the party than about longing to see the bridegroom. Their hope is that their association with true believers (“give us some of your oil” of verse 8) will bring them into the kingdom at the end.
This, of course, is never the case. One person’s faith in Jesus cannot save another. The “Lord, lord” and “I do not know you” of verses 11 and 12 fit very well with Jesus’ condemnation of the false believers of Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
It must be troubling to live everyday of your Christian life not having "assurance" in the power of God to save you and to bring us home safely. I was raised in the Church believing in the "assurance" of the believer and the bible supports this belief.
"What is the meaning of the Parable of the Ten Virgins?"
Quote:
The five virgins who have the extra oil represent the truly born again who are looking with eagerness to the coming of Christ. They have saving faith and have determined that, whatever occurs, be it lengthy time or adverse circumstances, when Jesus returns, they will be looking with eagerness. The five virgins without the oil represent "false believers" who enjoy the benefits of the Christian community without true love for Christ. They are more concerned about the party than about longing to see the bridegroom. Their hope is that their association with true believers (“give us some of your oil” of verse 8) will bring them into the kingdom at the end.
This, of course, is never the case. One person’s faith in Jesus cannot save another. The “Lord, lord” and “I do not know you” of verses 11 and 12 fit very well with Jesus’ condemnation of the false believers of Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
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Ben please read and digest what our brother TT has said and believes.
I'm sure TT like many others agree that good works out of love for Jesus will follow.
I cannot recall him saying anything different.
So to him good works are important.
In a sense I will know your faith by your works.
So to me
We are saved by faith and not of works.
Would you agree with that?
If so then we agree, if we agree then would you say that part of salvation is sanctification, this process is as a result of salvation?
We grow more and more and bear more fruit, as we do then do more good works.
Walk more and more in the spirit.
I say that actually there is a very big gap between works save and works do not save theology.
If we are saved by works do we negate salvation through faith. After all Jesus could have just said "Do good works and you will be fine"
Yet we find in James that good works are evidence of genuine faith.
Whilst I feel there is a big chasm here, for me personally I think the issue that it causes is how we walk with God, share the gospel and affect and interact with others.
We can miss many blessings available and add heavy burdens.
I genuinely believe that if we genuinely believe that Jesus is the son of God who died and rose again for our sins and we place genuine faith in him then we shall be saved.
What we have built on will be tested, and if what we have built on is burned up we shall still be saved even though through the fire.
Yet on the other side we do see a theology that says "All you need to do is say the sinners prayer and that's it"
That to me is more dangerous than whether we agree works save or not, and this was addressed by Paul in Romans 5-6
Finally I would like to ask what you feel sin is in the first instance?
What did the Holy Spirit come to convict us off?
TT I have quoted you. If I have got you wrong, please repost and correct me.
I'm sure TT like many others agree that good works out of love for Jesus will follow.
I cannot recall him saying anything different.
So to him good works are important.
In a sense I will know your faith by your works.
So to me
We are saved by faith and not of works.
Would you agree with that?
If so then we agree, if we agree then would you say that part of salvation is sanctification, this process is as a result of salvation?
We grow more and more and bear more fruit, as we do then do more good works.
Walk more and more in the spirit.
I say that actually there is a very big gap between works save and works do not save theology.
If we are saved by works do we negate salvation through faith. After all Jesus could have just said "Do good works and you will be fine"
Yet we find in James that good works are evidence of genuine faith.
Whilst I feel there is a big chasm here, for me personally I think the issue that it causes is how we walk with God, share the gospel and affect and interact with others.
We can miss many blessings available and add heavy burdens.
I genuinely believe that if we genuinely believe that Jesus is the son of God who died and rose again for our sins and we place genuine faith in him then we shall be saved.
What we have built on will be tested, and if what we have built on is burned up we shall still be saved even though through the fire.
Yet on the other side we do see a theology that says "All you need to do is say the sinners prayer and that's it"
That to me is more dangerous than whether we agree works save or not, and this was addressed by Paul in Romans 5-6
Finally I would like to ask what you feel sin is in the first instance?
What did the Holy Spirit come to convict us off?
TT I have quoted you. If I have got you wrong, please repost and correct me.
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Hi benhur, this quote is a picture of a Jewish wedding taking place. It seems as though the whole town with many friends and family would participate in this traditional wedding. Not everyone at the wedding procession was saved.
Quote:
The historical setting can also be known with a fair amount of certainty. In describing a first-century Jewish wedding, D.A. Carson in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary describes the setting this way: “Normally the bridegroom with some close friends left his home to go to the bride’s home, where there were various ceremonies, followed by a procession through the streets – after nightfall – to his home. The ten virgins may be bridesmaids who have been assisting the bride; and they expect to meet the groom as he comes from the bride’s house…Everyone in the procession was expected to carry his or her own torch. Those without a torch would be assumed to be party crashers or even brigands. The festivities, which might last several days, would formally get under way at the groom’s house.” The torch was either a lamp with a small oil tank and wick or a stick with a rag soaked in oil on the end of it which would require occasional re-soaking to maintain the flame.
Quote:
The historical setting can also be known with a fair amount of certainty. In describing a first-century Jewish wedding, D.A. Carson in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary describes the setting this way: “Normally the bridegroom with some close friends left his home to go to the bride’s home, where there were various ceremonies, followed by a procession through the streets – after nightfall – to his home. The ten virgins may be bridesmaids who have been assisting the bride; and they expect to meet the groom as he comes from the bride’s house…Everyone in the procession was expected to carry his or her own torch. Those without a torch would be assumed to be party crashers or even brigands. The festivities, which might last several days, would formally get under way at the groom’s house.” The torch was either a lamp with a small oil tank and wick or a stick with a rag soaked in oil on the end of it which would require occasional re-soaking to maintain the flame.
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N
"ben
Sure there is. The difference is this: I believe that good works are a part of the salvation process.
You do not. Pretty much the end. "
____________
mcgee
"we disagree about what almost every verse means....
also we completely disagree about the type of Father God is to His children..."
_______________
ben
"I believe by the grace of Jesus we are saved. I trust Jesus and his promises, just like you. I have faith that he is the Christ, and I worship him for his sacrifice to save me. I believe my faith is nothing but tickling symbols of brass unless my faith is accompanied by good works for the love of Jesus and for the love of mankind."
___________
mcgee
"i believe God keeps all His own by His power
and we become His by grace through faith....freely justified by Him
true good works are a by product of Him working in us that play no part in getting or staying saved what so ever.... God knows already who is His and who is not
works never once come into play to show Him anything new"
________
ben
"So we are really not that far apart"
______
mcgee
worlds apart.
___________
ben
"There is one other thing. I believe you can lose your salvation. You do not. So I have a tendancy to take stock of where I am more than you might (I don't know you that well). Jesus is also by my side to help me stay on the right path through the Holy Spirit."
____________
mcgee
"lol what?
i always know exactly where i am
in Christ"
ben
"So other than I believe in doing a little more good works, and I take stock of my standing a little more than you might, not a lot more differences than that."
mcgee
" maybe you do more of what you claim are "good works" for the cause of maintaining your own salvation...but to suggest you do more good works than me is rude and insulting (if that is what youre suggesting)"
Sure there is. The difference is this: I believe that good works are a part of the salvation process.
You do not. Pretty much the end. "
____________
mcgee
"we disagree about what almost every verse means....
also we completely disagree about the type of Father God is to His children..."
_______________
ben
"I believe by the grace of Jesus we are saved. I trust Jesus and his promises, just like you. I have faith that he is the Christ, and I worship him for his sacrifice to save me. I believe my faith is nothing but tickling symbols of brass unless my faith is accompanied by good works for the love of Jesus and for the love of mankind."
___________
mcgee
"i believe God keeps all His own by His power
and we become His by grace through faith....freely justified by Him
true good works are a by product of Him working in us that play no part in getting or staying saved what so ever.... God knows already who is His and who is not
works never once come into play to show Him anything new"
________
ben
"So we are really not that far apart"
______
mcgee
worlds apart.
___________
ben
"There is one other thing. I believe you can lose your salvation. You do not. So I have a tendancy to take stock of where I am more than you might (I don't know you that well). Jesus is also by my side to help me stay on the right path through the Holy Spirit."
____________
mcgee
"lol what?
i always know exactly where i am
in Christ"
ben
"So other than I believe in doing a little more good works, and I take stock of my standing a little more than you might, not a lot more differences than that."
mcgee
" maybe you do more of what you claim are "good works" for the cause of maintaining your own salvation
...but to suggest you do more good works than me is rude and insulting (if that is what youre suggesting)"-
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Perhaps I misspoke. I was trying to infer that what I want doesn't matter. My flesh is wicked and will be until I get my glorified body. I am saying that we can in no way,shape or form ever save ourselves or keep ourselves saved. I tried to escape the slavery of addiction for 30 years, failed every time. Jesus took my addiction in an instant. Same with sin. The surest way to sin is to constantly try not to sin as sin becomes all you think about. Instead I try and focus on the fact that I am righteous because God made me and keeps me righteous. If I can live in that truth, then and ONLY then can I enjoy the fruits of the spirit. Jesus saves. Jesus saves. Jesus saves. If left to my own devices sin will surely follow but if I rely on Christ He keeps me on His path.
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He did that with my gambling addiction.
I had struggled with it for just over 30 years.
The more I tried to stop the worse it got.
The worse it got the more condemnation it bought (and I do no believe the Holy Spirit condemns a believer)
The more condemnation the more of the gambling.
I even found myself gambling and had no idea I was.
It was like periods of time were blanked out.
I begged God every day to deliver me.
Cut a long story short.
When I fully came to understand who I was in Jesus what I meant to God the addiction just went.
For 8 years now I can honestly say I have not gambled, only a temptation less than the number of fingers on my hand.
I had struggled with it for just over 30 years.
The more I tried to stop the worse it got.
The worse it got the more condemnation it bought (and I do no believe the Holy Spirit condemns a believer)
The more condemnation the more of the gambling.
I even found myself gambling and had no idea I was.
It was like periods of time were blanked out.
I begged God every day to deliver me.
Cut a long story short.
When I fully came to understand who I was in Jesus what I meant to God the addiction just went.
For 8 years now I can honestly say I have not gambled, only a temptation less than the number of fingers on my hand.
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You are interpreting this parable in the way that it supports your NoOSAS/ES beliefs, that is a bad way to interpret the bible.
You are reading "into" the bible what you want it to say; instead of letting the bible speak to you.
A false interpretation equals, a false application, all of the time.
You are reading "into" the bible what you want it to say; instead of letting the bible speak to you.
A false interpretation equals, a false application, all of the time.
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Hey, we've gotta have SOMETHING to argue about...
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I would say no.
I have invited many people to church.
They have come to church.
Some have left and some have stayed.
They sing the songs, listen to the service, get something out of it.
They resolve to be a better person, do the right thing.
A few I have asked when talking to them "Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God who died and rose again for the forgiveness of your sins?
They said "Yes Jesus died on the cross but did not rise from the dead"
I even had one person ask me to baptise him, I was not convinced he was a genuine beliver. So I asked him he question above, I pressed in and said to him "Are you willing to confess this? He said no.
So I said "Sorry I cannot baptise you"
A couple of days later he told me that he is not coming to church anymore, the only reason he wanted to be baptised was because he felt it was the right thing to do and wanted to be part of a community.
So I said to him you can still be part of our community, even if you do not believe still come along. He said "No I can't because Jesus did not rise from the dead and I never will
Yet I have 2 instances of the reverse.
They made it very apparent that Jesus was just a good man who gave us good teaching, how to walk and I do the same then maybe I'll get into heaven.
I have had the privilege of baptising both, they made that wonderful confession.
In fact one of them was so ardently against Jesus rising again yet wanted a connection to a God. Actually in fact he had an angst against God. Twice he tried to commit suicide and on both times he had to resuscitated, the second time 3 times and when he woke up he says to "F###, why have you not let me die you b#####d
It was such a privilege (after many months of walking with him) he called me and said "I need to talk to you"
We meet we talk he asks "Why can't I connect with God, why the disconnection"
I said to "Jesus is your connection"
He asks "What do I pray what do I say, I don't know how to pray"
I said to him "Just be honest, talk to him and tell him everything, he knows it anyway"
Long story short, he falls on his knees, and boy did pray.
He was totally honest, warts and all. He cried, shouted out, laid everything on the table.
The floor was wet with his tears, mingled with the snot from his nose.
Then he cried out "JESUS YOU ARE WHO YOU SAY YOU ARE I NEED YOU SO SO MUCH, I BELIEVE YOU DIED FOR ME AND MY SINS AND ROSE AGAIN, THANKS FOR NOT LETTING ME DIE WHEN I TRIED TO KILL MYSELF, THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A REASON AND THIS IT"
then he got up and boy was I shocked. A totally different person, a face full of burden but now released.
To be honest after that I went for a walk.
I just couldn't get my head around it.
A guy I walked with, ridiculed what I was telling him and me, then in the space of 2 hours it's all changed.
I was gobsmacked, yet humbled.
Being in the church and part of the Church does not make you believer placed faith in Jesus is accepting the invitation.
Jesus Christ who died and rose again, believe it and walk in it.
Just like the guy above is doing.
He is bearing so much fruit
I have invited many people to church.
They have come to church.
Some have left and some have stayed.
They sing the songs, listen to the service, get something out of it.
They resolve to be a better person, do the right thing.
A few I have asked when talking to them "Do you believe that Jesus is the son of God who died and rose again for the forgiveness of your sins?
They said "Yes Jesus died on the cross but did not rise from the dead"
I even had one person ask me to baptise him, I was not convinced he was a genuine beliver. So I asked him he question above, I pressed in and said to him "Are you willing to confess this? He said no.
So I said "Sorry I cannot baptise you"
A couple of days later he told me that he is not coming to church anymore, the only reason he wanted to be baptised was because he felt it was the right thing to do and wanted to be part of a community.
So I said to him you can still be part of our community, even if you do not believe still come along. He said "No I can't because Jesus did not rise from the dead and I never will
Yet I have 2 instances of the reverse.
They made it very apparent that Jesus was just a good man who gave us good teaching, how to walk and I do the same then maybe I'll get into heaven.
I have had the privilege of baptising both, they made that wonderful confession.
In fact one of them was so ardently against Jesus rising again yet wanted a connection to a God. Actually in fact he had an angst against God. Twice he tried to commit suicide and on both times he had to resuscitated, the second time 3 times and when he woke up he says to "F###, why have you not let me die you b#####d
It was such a privilege (after many months of walking with him) he called me and said "I need to talk to you"
We meet we talk he asks "Why can't I connect with God, why the disconnection"
I said to "Jesus is your connection"
He asks "What do I pray what do I say, I don't know how to pray"
I said to him "Just be honest, talk to him and tell him everything, he knows it anyway"
Long story short, he falls on his knees, and boy did pray.
He was totally honest, warts and all. He cried, shouted out, laid everything on the table.
The floor was wet with his tears, mingled with the snot from his nose.
Then he cried out "JESUS YOU ARE WHO YOU SAY YOU ARE I NEED YOU SO SO MUCH, I BELIEVE YOU DIED FOR ME AND MY SINS AND ROSE AGAIN, THANKS FOR NOT LETTING ME DIE WHEN I TRIED TO KILL MYSELF, THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A REASON AND THIS IT"
then he got up and boy was I shocked. A totally different person, a face full of burden but now released.
To be honest after that I went for a walk.
I just couldn't get my head around it.
A guy I walked with, ridiculed what I was telling him and me, then in the space of 2 hours it's all changed.
I was gobsmacked, yet humbled.
Being in the church and part of the Church does not make you believer placed faith in Jesus is accepting the invitation.
Jesus Christ who died and rose again, believe it and walk in it.
Just like the guy above is doing.
He is bearing so much fruit
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