The cultic origins of Annihilationism

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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#241
Nov 12, 2015
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#241
shrume said:
Satan will perish.

Eze 28:
18) Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
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Yes, that's the other verse that was earlier brought up that needs to be fit in too.
He brings him to ashes upon the earth and he shall never be any more.
It seems to my mind to war with being in torment forever.
That is why I said I thought the two verses were speaking of different points in time. And we do have verses about him being cast to earth, falling from heaven, and in great wrath over the time.
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#242
Jun 13, 2018
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#242
shrume said:
The Bible does not say that Adam "spiritually died". That's reading into the scriptures. "Day" does not always mean on that very day (24 hour period).
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Thank you for confirming my point, it's all about the context when it comes to interpreting the Bible. I'm glad to see you agree there are many different types of death mentioned in the Bible, that's what I was trying to say to the guy who took "death" to mean the same thing in every context found in the Bible and that's simply not true
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#243
Jun 26, 2017
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#243
Stunnedbygrace said:
Yes, that's the other verse that was earlier brought up that needs to be fit in too.
He brings him to ashes upon the earth and he shall never be any more.
It seems to my mind to war with being in torment forever.
That is why I said I thought the two verses were speaking of different points in time. And we do have verses about him being cast to earth, falling from heaven, and in great wrath over the time.
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I believe that "eternal torments" is hyperbole. There are so few scripture that support eternal torments, but many that explain death, and the fate of the wicked and unsaved ("die", "cut off", "perish", "destroyed", "burned like chaff", and more.)
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#244
Jun 26, 2017
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#244
MarkWilliams said:
Thank you for confirming my point, it's all about the context when it comes to interpreting the Bible. I'm glad to see you agree there are many different types of death mentioned in the Bible, that's what I was trying to say to the guy who took "death" to mean the same thing in every context found in the Bible and that's simply not true
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I did not confirm your point.
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#245
Oct 7, 2012
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#245
I don't understand the importance of having a physical body, but isn't it clear that we are a spirit with a body? The Bible says this corruptible must put on incorruptible, this mortal immortality, it is referring to our glorified bodies, right?

I mean, consider possession (demonic). Spirits go into people and control them, make vocal noises and so on. These fallen angels are spiritual beings, and spirit is immaterial (so it does not fade, does not deteriorate). Are we not too spiritual beings, presently in mortal bodies?

There are testimonies of Christians who visit Heaven, or have out of body experiences, and then lay back into their body as they descend back into their room (or where ever they were). That people existed in Abraham's Bosom for example, show that we are spirits and not just physical bodies. They waited and the Messiah saved them. Yet, take note, they existed in a waiting place. It is also around this time that Jesus rose many of the dead saints (Matthew 27:52).

We are spiritual beings, yet God has made it so that we would have an abode (our physical bodies).
 
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MarkWilliams

Active member
#246
Jun 13, 2018
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#246
shrume said:
I did not confirm your point.
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You are free to deny Biblical truth, it's your choice. You can choose ignorance but you will eventually have to give an account of your life before God.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#249
Apr 22, 2013
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#249
Stunnedbygrace said:
I believe it IS a vital issue. I've heard unbelievers say they do not and cannot believe in a God who is supposedly merciful causing unbelievers to be tortured and tormented for all of eternity. They want no part of a God who is portrayed as being so angry at sin that He causes men to live forever just so He can punish them in all eternity for it. I think they have a valid point, but I think He has been misportrayed.
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I'm pretty sure my ministry is the compassion part, and isn't to scare the unsaved into believers, but apparently Scripture says some are to do just that!

Jude:22 And on some have compassion, [j]making a distinction; 23 but others save [k]WITH FEAR, pulling them out of the [l]FIRE, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

And what does Jude say about that fire? Well let's go back to verse 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, SUFFERING the [d]vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE.

Why is the fire eternal if they are annihilated? Just for those 3 dudes you think are the only ones in that lake?
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#250
Oct 7, 2012
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#250
Stunnedbygrace said:
I don't believe we are, UNTIL we are given Gods' Spirit.
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Abraham's Bosom explicitly reveals that we are. They did not have God's Spirit in them in the OT, only upon them. We are the temples of the Holy Spirit. Scripture is clear, we are spirits within bodies, not bodies with a spirit.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#251
Nov 12, 2015
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#251
I don't know that many will be able to understand what I'm saying here, but I'm pretty sure at least pennEd will.

The famous verse in Isaiah which Jesus read aloud. He stopped in midverse because the fulfillment was at that time occurring only for the first part. But it reads as if the verse is one continuous thing. But it isn't/wasn't. The part He spoke on was then occurring. The next part was for a time even further future.

It's a huge, huge help to us, but we don't use it. IT tells us of the possibility that there are other verses that seem to be describing all one thing/time/event when actually, the last part of a verse can be way off in the future.

So, when God brings fire from within satan to burn him on earth in the sight of men, our minds insist that the next part has to go with that first part. But the next part: and you will never be anymore, may be referring to a different event, even further future.

OF course, this does not solve the problem of how: you will never be anymore can be made to fit with tormented forever and ever.

But my point was that sometimes if I remember that a verse can be speaking of two different time periods/events simultaneously even though they are separated by time, it clears some things up for me sometimes.
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#252
Jun 26, 2017
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#252
BenFTW said:
I don't understand the importance of having a physical body
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Without it, you would not exist. Even the resurrected Jesus has a physical body (Luke 24:39).
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#253
Oct 7, 2012
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#253
shrume said:
Without it, you would not exist. Even the resurrected Jesus has a physical body (Luke 24:39).
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Jesus existed before He had a body through Mary's womb. He put on a corruptible body, coming in the likeness of man.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#254
Apr 22, 2013
13,575
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#254
Stunnedbygrace said:
I don't know that many will be able to understand what I'm saying here, but I'm pretty sure at least pennEd will.

The famous verse in Isaiah which Jesus read aloud. He stopped in midverse because the fulfillment was at that time occurring only for the first part. But it reads as if the verse is one continuous thing. But it isn't/wasn't. The part He spoke on was then occurring. The next part was for a time even further future.

It's a huge, huge help to us, but we don't use it. IT tells us of the possibility that there are other verses that seem to be describing all one thing/time/event when actually, the last part of a verse can be way off in the future.

So, when God brings fire from within satan to burn him on earth in the sight of men, our minds insist that the next part has to go with that first part. But the next part: and you will never be anymore, may be referring to a different event, even further future.

OF course, this does not solve the problem of how: you will never be anymore can be made to fit with tormented forever and ever.

But my point was that sometimes if I remember that a verse can be speaking of two different time periods/events simultaneously even though they are separated by time, it clears some things up for me sometimes.
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Your'e right, and that comma in Luke has lasted over 2000yrs! Praise God!

But I still think those in Hell and the outer darkness, WHERE THEIR WILL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH, IS NOT LIFE, but conscious existence.

Not sure how one could wail and gnash teeth if they are annihilated. I mean, I do that a little in my sleep when i forget to put on my C-pap, but i'm mostly unconcious!
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#255
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
823
113
#255
PennEd said:
I'm pretty sure my ministry is the compassion part, and isn't to scare the unsaved into believers, but apparently Scripture says some are to do just that!

Jude:22 And on some have compassion, [j]making a distinction; 23 but others save [k]WITH FEAR, pulling them out of the [l]FIRE, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

And what does Jude say about that fire? Well let's go back to verse 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, SUFFERING the [d]vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE.

Why is the fire eternal if they are annihilated? Just for those 3 dudes you think are the only ones in that lake?
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Well the "fear", to my mind, is speaking of a fear on the part of the one doing the pulling out of the fire. It doesn't read to me as meaning: put them in fear.

As to your next paragraph, I have a funny thought. I think you will see the humor in it.
If dead can mean eternally alive, then:
Eternal fire can mean dead.

Next paragraph: According to the suppositions I've given, the eternal fire would still be burning because there is still something in there for it to burn - the unholy trinity. But let's see if there's anything else...if God so chose, could He have caused the fire to burn in the bush forever but not consume the bush? As a sort of memorial or graffiti to mark: GOD WUZ HERE? I'm saying IF He wanted to mark a memorial to something He did forever and ever - could He? So there are reasons for why a fire would burn forever that a human mind can grasp.
 
PennEd

PennEd

Senior Member
#256
Apr 22, 2013
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#256
Stunnedbygrace said:
Well the "fear", to my mind, is speaking of a fear on the part of the one doing the pulling out of the fire. It doesn't read to me as meaning: put them in fear.

As to your next paragraph, I have a funny thought. I think you will see the humor in it.
If dead can mean eternally alive, then:
Eternal fire can mean dead.

Next paragraph: According to the suppositions I've given, the eternal fire would still be burning because there is still something in there for it to burn - the unholy trinity. But let's see if there's anything else...if God so chose, could He have caused the fire to burn in the bush forever but not consume the bush? As a sort of memorial or graffiti to mark: GOD WUZ HERE? I'm saying IF He wanted to mark a memorial to something He did forever and ever - could He? So there are reasons for why a fire would burn forever that a human mind can grasp.
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Hmm.... You made me think! Very dangerous! Lol.

So the wood bush could be on fire and not consumed, but a resurrected spirit in a brand spankin new eternal suit can't?
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#257
Nov 12, 2015
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#257
PennEd said:
Your'e right, and that comma in Luke has lasted over 2000yrs! Praise God!

But I still think those in Hell and the outer darkness, WHERE THEIR WILL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH, IS NOT LIFE, but conscious existence.

Not sure how one could wail and gnash teeth if they are annihilated. I mean, I do that a little in my sleep when i forget to put on my C-pap, but i'm mostly unconcious!
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This is very intriguing and we can definitely look into it!

Why would God call the lake of fire by that name in one place and call the lake of fire the outer darkness in another place and call the lake of fire "hell" in yet another place?

As to the wailing and gnashing of teeth...(I love think tanks by the way. When I find a man who is capable of participating because he is open as I am), let's see...when I tell my child to go to bed, there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, but the child does eventually fall asleep, even though not by choice. The weeping and gnashing of teeth does happen, but it does not continue forever. So it could be as simple as that...

As to the outer darkness being a place of conscious existence where the weeping and gnashing continue forever - are we sure the outer darkness is in fact the lake of fire?
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#258
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
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#258
PennEd said:
Hmm.... You made me think! Very dangerous! Lol.

So the wood bush could be on fire and not consumed, but a resurrected spirit in a brand spankin new eternal suit can't?
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I'm not so much into saying what God can or cannot do to bushes and new suits. :D
I'm more into fitting the verses into place without declaring what God can and can't do, rather than remaining in a confusion of suppositions and speculations.
 
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