Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree.

well your allowed I guess,

But I will be honest and blunt (forgive me) that is dangerous in my view, Because in your view, we can lose salvation, and we better work hard to "endure to the end" or we will lose salvation.

Go back and read matt 24, The context is the tribulation period. He who endures to the end (in that period) will be saved

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes, even Jesus said: you are careful to tithe every speck of cumin and dill but you ignore the weightier matters like mercy.

And you see this all the time in people who are so consumed with not sinning. They will talk about others not attending church on sunday or watching a movie they think is ungodly or turning their nose up at someone who is overweight as being gluttonous or that a man smokes cigarettes.

And meanwhile, they do all of the things in spirit that they judge the other man for doing outwardly.
They focus on another mans outside of his cup because he doesn't go to church on sunday and meanwhile, they break the true sabbath rest worrying over their 401k that has tanked.

They judge a man for watching a movie while in their own heart they are resenting and murdering ethel because she sat in their pew spot. (At that point, they're two down because they broke the true rest AND they murdered). Surely a man watching a movie they don't approve of is not as bad as murdering ethel!

They were carefully "tithing every speck of dill" and were ignoring all of the weightier matters in their own heart.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

well your allowed I guess,

But I will be honest and blunt (forgive me) that is dangerous in my view, Because in your view, we can lose salvation, and we better work hard to "endure to the end" or we will lose salvation.

Go back and read matt 24, The context is the tribulation period. He who endures to the end (in that period) will be saved

Nope. I didn't say any of that.
If a man must endure to the end to be saved, you best believe it will be God causing him to endure - NOT himself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You have read them as well, you know there are degrees of sin. Some very serious and others not so serious, and then we also have the sin which damns a person to spend eternity in hell. You know the one, if you sin against the Holy Spirit

James 2:10

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

There are varying degrees of sin which is more damaging to us and others. They recieve a more harsh punishment according to the law

But all sin, no matter how small, is enough to separate us from God.

the penalty of sin (all sin no matter how small) is death, the gift of God is eternal life

The sin against the spirit is rejecting the gospel

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The sin against the spirit is rejecting the gospel

That's not what I got from reading about it...
What I got was that the unforgivable sin is to attribute the working of the Spirit to be the works of satan.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope. I didn't say any of that.
If a man must endure to the end to be saved, you best believe it will be God causing him to endure - NOT himself.

Then there would be no reason for God to tell us to endure to the end to be saved.

Again, That makes no sense. and does not fit the context anyway.

Matt 24:
9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. 10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

The "Then" refers to tribulation. After the birth pangs, After the peace, it will be then that (namely the jews) but her children (the church) also. will be delivered up. The jews will be hated by all nations, People will turn on each other, many false prophets will arise, and love grows cold.

But whoever endures to the end of this period will be saved.

The context is tribulation, not eternal life.

 

[justpassinthrough]

That's not what I got from reading about it...
What I got was that the unforgivable sin is to attribute the working of the Spirit to be the works of satan.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That's not what I got from reading about it...
What I got was that the unforgivable sin is to attribute the working of the Spirit to be the works of satan.

When you reject the gospel. your attributing the work of the HS to someone else. your calling him a liar.

You blaspheme God by calling God a liar and attributing his words or work to someone else.

and remember, the people who jesus were talking to. They commited that sin, Yet jesus just warned them, even thouogh they were guilty, he said they were in danger. They had a chance to repent, it is dieing in this state of rebelion which is unforgivable.

he who does not believe is condemned already because they have commited the only sin Jesus did not die for.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Then there would be no reason for God to tell us to endure to the end to be saved.

It is not by fighting to hold on to his physical life until Jesus comes again that saves a man.
And He didn't give a command there. He gave a promise - that he who endures to the end will be saved. Do you think He was concerned that men be told they should strenuously fight to remain physically alive during the tribulation so they will be saved...?

He was saying that anyone who endures in faith to the end will be saved.

 

[MarkWilliams]

James 2:10

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

There are varying degrees of sin which is more damaging to us and others. They recieve a more harsh punishment according to the law

But all sin, no matter how small, is enough to separate us from God.

the penalty of sin (all sin no matter how small) is death, the gift of God is eternal life

The sin against the spirit is rejecting the gospel

Correct me if I'm wrong, but will the believers also be punished for their sins by getting a smaller reward than the ones who sinned less and done greater things for the Lord.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

When you reject the gospel. your attributing the work of the HS to someone else. your calling him a liar

We're just going to have to disagree. I don't think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is rejecting the gospel. I think it is attributing the work of the Spirit to satan.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is not by fighting to hold on to his physical life until Jesus comes again that saves a man.
And He didn't give a command there. He gave a promise - that he who endures to the end will be saved. Do you think He was concerned that men be told they should strenuously fight to remain physically alive during the tribulation so they will be saved...?

He was saying that anyone who endures in faith to the end will be saved.

I do not think we are in synch sis. I think it is our interpretation of a word.

Your taking the word salvation, and interpreting it as eternal life

I am taking the word salvation and interpreting it to mean physical life.

If jesus is telling us to endure to the end to be saved (eternal life) he himself is teaching works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but will the believers also be punished for their sins by getting a smaller reward than the ones who sinned less and done greater things for the Lord.

What would that have to do with being saved? or losing salvation. If your right, even those people will be saved, even as through fire.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We're just going to have to disagree. I don't think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is rejecting the gospel. I think it is attributing the work of the Spirit to satan.

yes, we will have to disagree.

Either way, The people who go to hell go because they did not believe,

 

[MarkWilliams]

What would that have to do with being saved? or losing salvation. If your right, even those people will be saved, even as through fire.

You misunderstood me, I meant both of those were saved believers. And on judgement day one gets a greater reward for being more obedient and doing greater things for the Lord during their life time. Where as the other believer, who sinned more and done less for the Lord gets a smaller reward or position in heaven. Is that Biblical?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I do not think we are in synch sis. I think it is our interpretation of a word.

Your taking the word salvation, and interpreting it as eternal life

I am taking the word salvation and interpreting it to mean physical life.

If jesus is telling us to endure to the end to be saved (eternal life) he himself is teaching works.

I think it depends on if you are looking at he who endures to the end will be saved as a command that a man must do or as a promise...

But this is one thing we have never agreed on - I think one must keep their trust (faith) to the end to be saved. It is through our faith that God saves us.

We have to be careful to not paint ourselves into a corner in theological discussions.

If it is through faith that He saves us, then we cannot remove that faith.

I already know your next move because I have examined our discussions over many years now.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You misunderstood me, I meant both of those were saved believers. And on judgement day one gets a greater reward for being more obedient and doing greater things for the Lord during their life time. Where as the other believer, who sinned more and done less for the Lord gets a smaller reward or position in heaven. Is that Biblical?

I would rather stick to our discussion of enduring to the end to be saved.

but to answer you, The bible says our works will be tried by fire,, Some will get great reward. some will see it burnt up. David committed adultery many times over and murder, Yet david will recieve great reward and have a high [;ace in heaven. sp sin to me is not the issue. bearing fruit is

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think it depends on if you are looking at he who endures to the end will be saved as a command that a man must do or as a promise...

But this is one thing we have never agreed on - I think one must keep their trust (faith) to the end to be saved. It is through our faith that God saves us.

We have to be careful to not paint ourselves into a corner in theological discussions.

If it is through faith that He saves us, then we cannot remove that faith.

I already know your next move because I have examined our discussions over many years now.

I do not think a man who places faith in a faithful God can lose faith, Because God will never give us a reason not to (he is faithful) You either repented and believe God is you only hope of eternal life or you do not. I have met people who lacked faith for God to take care of the here, or trust in God because of a death or hardship. (I was a prodigal son myself for 5 years)

But I have never met anyone who had true saving faith stop believing there only hope of salvation was Christ.

There is faith in God in the gospel

and faith in God in our daily lives,

Salvation is not dependent on the second form, It is dependent on the first.

People who turn from God and claim to not trust God in the second reject him, and as John says, they were never saved to begin with

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I do not think a man who places faith in a faithful God can lose faith, Because God will never give us a reason not to (he is faithful) You either repented and believe God is you only hope of eternal life or you do not. I have met people who lacked faith for God to take care of the here, or trust in God because of a death or hardship. (I was a prodigal son myself for 5 years)

But I have never met anyone who had true saving faith stop believing there only hope of salvation was Christ.

There is faith in God in the gospel

and faith in God in our daily lives,

Salvation is not dependent on the second form, It is dependent on the first.

People who turn from God and claim to not trust God in the second reject him, and as John says, they were never saved to begin with

So you are saying there is trust that your sins are forgiven and that you have eternal life. And that it is a completely different form of trust to believe every other thing He said. But I think it would be insanity to believe and trust Him that I will live forever but then to not believe and trust Him that, say...I don't have to worry about provision. Surely raising my dead body is a bigger miracle than temporal provision.

And before you begin to caterwaul , no, I do not think that my areas of unbelief and mistrust mean I'm not saved. Obviously, I would not have the Holy Spirit as I do if I was not saved. And obviously, He would not have been working on my areas of unbelief and mistrust all these years if He was not increasing that faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So you are saying there is trust that your sins are forgiven and that you have eternal life. And that it is a completely different form of trust to believe every other thing He said. But I think it would be insanity to believe and trust Him that I will live forever but then to not believe and trust Him that, say...I don't have to worry about provision. Surely raising my dead body is a bigger miracle than temporal provision.

And before you begin to caterwaul , no, I do not think that my areas of unbelief and mistrust mean I'm not saved. Obviously, I would not have the Holy Spirit as I do if I was not saved. And obviously, He would not have been working on my areas of unbelief and mistrust all these years if He was not increasing that faith.

I agree it is insanity, Thats why we need God in the first place. lol

Remember we are born babes in Christ, a babe has to learn to trust God, by taking steps of faith. And many never grow up they remains babes sadly.

and yes he increases your faith by proving trustworthy. So how could you lose faith in eternity based on grace, if he proves trustworthy in this lifetime every time you take those steps of faith. If anything, every time you do things by your own power (self) you fail. and sometimes, that failure is real bad. so if anything, you lose faiht in self. and your faith in God grows.