Is eternal torment in hell fire Biblical
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I used to think that it was easy to tell who the true believers are, but I have since learned that only God knows who they are.
Some folks may appear to be true believers beyond doubt, then they do something that exposes them as false professors. Others can live out their lives as true believers and fool everyone around them and they are only exposed on judgement day.
Some folks may appear to be true believers beyond doubt, then they do something that exposes them as false professors. Others can live out their lives as true believers and fool everyone around them and they are only exposed on judgement day.
Christians have not been given the privilege of sitting in judgment over the salvation of other Christians.
If people would stay busy doing the Lord's work (and there is still a great deal of work to be done) they would not be focusing on the standing of others at all.
Even though Paul did not know the hearts of the Christians in the various churches which he addressed, he simply assumed that they were all brethren and saints. It is God who sorts the wheat from the tares.
If people would stay busy doing the Lord's work (and there is still a great deal of work to be done) they would not be focusing on the standing of others at all.
Even though Paul did not know the hearts of the Christians in the various churches which he addressed, he simply assumed that they were all brethren and saints. It is God who sorts the wheat from the tares.
And this is only applicable within the context of your own church. You can certainly assess the spirituality of those with whom you gather to worship.
And it is only false prophets and false teachers whose words and teaching should be carefully examined, and those men and women exposed for who they really are -- wolves in sheep's clothing.
And it is only false prophets and false teachers whose words and teaching should be carefully examined, and those men and women exposed for who they really are -- wolves in sheep's clothing.
Hello carl11,
I beg to differ! The word "anastasis" translated "Resurrection" is defined as follows:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The word resurrection always refers to a bodily standing up again, i.e. coming back to life. Jesus is the example, as His body was in the tomb and then three days later He returned to His body which was raised immortal and glorified. Regarding the resurrection, Paul said the following as well:
"and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
And Dan.12:2 most certainly does refer to both the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked. It statues that both the righteous and the wicked will "awake" which is referring to the resurrection of their bodies.
The rich man and Lazarus is in no way a parable. As I have pointed out in many other posts, parables use symbolism to represent what is literal, sower = Christ, good seed = sons of the kingdom, weeds = sons of the evil one, harvest = end of the age, harvesters = the angels, etc. In opposition, the rich man and Lazarus event uses real names, Abraham, Lazarus, Moses and the literal place of Hades. In addition, there is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to a parabolic interpretation, nor the parabolic meanings if it was a parable. If you put 1000 people who have never been tainted by the teachings of men regarding the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable and if you told them to present the parabolic meanings, not one would be in agreement. You would have to give another meaning for everyone and everything in the rich man and Lazarus if it was a parable.
The sorrow is the torment of being in agony in flame according to the context. But I am sure that what will be worse than the flames, will be the complete separation from God their creator. Hades is open 24/7 and people are continually pouring in their day after day, remembering all the opportunities they had to receive Christ and now it is too late.
Instead of believing the truth, why do you people fight so hard to resist it?
I beg to differ! The word "anastasis" translated "Resurrection" is defined as follows:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Strong's Concordance
anastasis: a standing up, i.e. a resurrection, a raising up, rising
Original Word: ἀνάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: anastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (an-as'-tas-is)
Short Definition: a rising again, resurrection
Definition: a rising again, resurrection.
HELPS Word-studies
386 anástasis (from 303 /aná, "up, again" and 2476 /hístēmi, "to stand") – literally, "stand up" (or "stand again"), referring to physical resurrection (of the body).
Christ's physical resurrection is the foundation of Christianity, which also guarantees the future resurrection of all believers (see Jn 6:39,40,44).
[386 /anástasis ("resurrection") refers to the physical, bodily resurrection of Christ – and people (both of the redeemed and the unredeemed).]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The word resurrection always refers to a bodily standing up again, i.e. coming back to life. Jesus is the example, as His body was in the tomb and then three days later He returned to His body which was raised immortal and glorified. Regarding the resurrection, Paul said the following as well:
"and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
And Dan.12:2 most certainly does refer to both the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked. It statues that both the righteous and the wicked will "awake" which is referring to the resurrection of their bodies.
The rich man and Lazarus is in no way a parable. As I have pointed out in many other posts, parables use symbolism to represent what is literal, sower = Christ, good seed = sons of the kingdom, weeds = sons of the evil one, harvest = end of the age, harvesters = the angels, etc. In opposition, the rich man and Lazarus event uses real names, Abraham, Lazarus, Moses and the literal place of Hades. In addition, there is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to a parabolic interpretation, nor the parabolic meanings if it was a parable. If you put 1000 people who have never been tainted by the teachings of men regarding the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable and if you told them to present the parabolic meanings, not one would be in agreement. You would have to give another meaning for everyone and everything in the rich man and Lazarus if it was a parable.
The sorrow is the torment of being in agony in flame according to the context. But I am sure that what will be worse than the flames, will be the complete separation from God their creator. Hades is open 24/7 and people are continually pouring in their day after day, remembering all the opportunities they had to receive Christ and now it is too late.
Instead of believing the truth, why do you people fight so hard to resist it?
paul said something about this...he said there are (my paraphrase, going on memory) those sins that are visible and apparent and there are those that will be brought to light at judgement.
A man who is incarcerated for murder, that's visible. When all is brought to light one day, a man who had bitter resentments and anger in his heart will be shown to be a murderer also. And all can see when a man is caught cheating on his wife - adultery. It's visible sin. But when his heart is assailed by light in the judgement, all men will see if he cherished and hid adultery in his heart and mind.
And in that day, it will be worse for the man who judged another over his outward sins if he is shown to have been doing the same things in his heart. Because he said he could see and be a guide for others when he couldn't see at all. Because if he really could see, he would have known he was a murderer inside and would not have judged a man for doing visibly what he himself did in the shadows. Your righteousness must exceed their righteousness.
Yes it's quite sobering to remember that every sin will be exposed, either in this life or the next. So we should share the Gospel with as many people as we can. There is a big difference between judging someone hypocritically and warning them about the consequences of sin. To warn someone is to love them, to leave them in their ignorance is not what Jesus taught us to do.
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Yes, it is not right to leave a man in his ignorance. We protestants are good at preaching the gospel.
The danger is phariseeism - preaching it to others when our righteousness does not exceed theirs.
In other words,
Romans 2 New Living Translation (NLT)
God’s Judgment of Sin
2 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things? 4 Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?
5 But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will judge everyone according to what they have done
The danger is phariseeism - preaching it to others when our righteousness does not exceed theirs.
In other words,
Romans 2 New Living Translation (NLT)
God’s Judgment of Sin
2 You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things. 2 And we know that God, in his justice, will punish anyone who does such things. 3 Since you judge others for doing these things, why do you think you can avoid God’s judgment when you do the same things? 4 Don’t you see how wonderfully kind, tolerant, and patient God is with you? Does this mean nothing to you? Can’t you see that his kindness is intended to turn you from your sin?
5 But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will judge everyone according to what they have done
It doesn't matter how sinful a Christian is, he can still witness and preach the Gospel to unbelievers. All Christians continue to sin until the day we die, there's nothing we can do to stop sinning so we need to preach the Gospel in spite of our sins.
Our past, present and all future sins have been forgiven so we mustn't allow the guilt of sin to hinder our work of spreading the Gospel. Those who think they can stop sinning are fools, the bible tells us that we are all sinners but the only difference is Christians are forgiven while unbelievers will be held to account and they will pay for their sins in hell fire unless they are converted before they die.
Our past, present and all future sins have been forgiven so we mustn't allow the guilt of sin to hinder our work of spreading the Gospel. Those who think they can stop sinning are fools, the bible tells us that we are all sinners but the only difference is Christians are forgiven while unbelievers will be held to account and they will pay for their sins in hell fire unless they are converted before they die.
W
I am so sorry to hear about your brother. That must be devastating both in losing him and how he did it.
Does it matter knowing exactly which kind of place hell is or does it matter where your brother is? I suspect you're more thinking of your brother than hell.
You know your brother. Did the Lord truly save him? And don't be distracted by your brother's final act. Think of his life instead? Did something happen to him after he was born-again? Was he captured by the Lord and following him? Obviously following imperfectly, since we all do, but was he following?
Suicide is the only choice left when it feels all hope is lost. It is a form of madness--temporary or long-term--because even if hope feels lost, hope is never lost if we are believers. Our hope is in the promises of the Lord. But even that isn't enough on rare occasions. If the pain is too much to bear, and we feel like God isn't helping, how do we go on?
Salvation isn't our doing. If it were, none of us could remain saved. It's from God and through God. And when we are saved we change. People don't change, but God does change us to the better. Did your brother have that? And, again, not counting the last act of his life or even all that lead up to that. Look at his life in general. Did he have God's fruit showing in him?
If he did, whom God saves, he keeps saved. Now your brother is experiencing all we're still hoping for. God does not quit on his because we quit on the suffering. (John 6:35-40)
If he did not, then eternal separation from the Lord. Does it matter if he's in fire, when the big thing is he will never be with the Lord?
I know the heartache of knowing my parents weren't saved. I cannot figure out how there will be no more tears and sorrow in heaven, knowing they won't be there. I don't know if they get hell fire or not. It's miserable just knowing they get no Lord eternally. The Lord will have to show me how that doesn't desolve into tears and sorrow when I'm with him in heaven.
For now, it makes me want to make sure my siblings spend eternity with him. I'm truly sorry about your brother, but you've prayed your prayers for him already, and the Lord heard and answered. I suspect you know what the Lord's answer was.
Does it matter knowing exactly which kind of place hell is or does it matter where your brother is? I suspect you're more thinking of your brother than hell.
You know your brother. Did the Lord truly save him? And don't be distracted by your brother's final act. Think of his life instead? Did something happen to him after he was born-again? Was he captured by the Lord and following him? Obviously following imperfectly, since we all do, but was he following?
Suicide is the only choice left when it feels all hope is lost. It is a form of madness--temporary or long-term--because even if hope feels lost, hope is never lost if we are believers. Our hope is in the promises of the Lord. But even that isn't enough on rare occasions. If the pain is too much to bear, and we feel like God isn't helping, how do we go on?
Salvation isn't our doing. If it were, none of us could remain saved. It's from God and through God. And when we are saved we change. People don't change, but God does change us to the better. Did your brother have that? And, again, not counting the last act of his life or even all that lead up to that. Look at his life in general. Did he have God's fruit showing in him?
If he did, whom God saves, he keeps saved. Now your brother is experiencing all we're still hoping for. God does not quit on his because we quit on the suffering. (John 6:35-40)
If he did not, then eternal separation from the Lord. Does it matter if he's in fire, when the big thing is he will never be with the Lord?
I know the heartache of knowing my parents weren't saved. I cannot figure out how there will be no more tears and sorrow in heaven, knowing they won't be there. I don't know if they get hell fire or not. It's miserable just knowing they get no Lord eternally. The Lord will have to show me how that doesn't desolve into tears and sorrow when I'm with him in heaven.
For now, it makes me want to make sure my siblings spend eternity with him. I'm truly sorry about your brother, but you've prayed your prayers for him already, and the Lord heard and answered. I suspect you know what the Lord's answer was.
The last time I was with him he asked me to pray with him. He got on his knees and prayed for God's guidance to live according to His will. I was glad to see that he professed faith in Christ, I was confident that he would continue in the faith and come to Church with me but a few days later he was gone.
On the one hand I trust that God doesn't lose any true believers, on the other hand I can't be certain that his faith was genuine.
I do take comfort in the knowledge that God is just and everything He does is perfectly good and justified. I also believe that when we die, He will reveal the whole truth and our spiritual eyes will be fully opened so we will love Him and His justice even more. So we will accept everything He does gladly.
On the one hand I trust that God doesn't lose any true believers, on the other hand I can't be certain that his faith was genuine.
I do take comfort in the knowledge that God is just and everything He does is perfectly good and justified. I also believe that when we die, He will reveal the whole truth and our spiritual eyes will be fully opened so we will love Him and His justice even more. So we will accept everything He does gladly.
I was trying to say that even a false Christian can still preach the true Gospel, the person hearing it may come to faith after hearing the Gospel message. God can use a false Christian to do His work, it's not about the person or his moral state it's about the Gospel message going into the whole world.
Oh...I was focusing more on the danger to the man himself who was preaching and then in danger of being disqualified after he preached.
I suppose the gospel can be preached without the man preaching it having the Spirit and power and another man hear and be saved...I'll take your word on it. I never thought about it or considered it.
I suppose the gospel can be preached without the man preaching it having the Spirit and power and another man hear and be saved...I'll take your word on it. I never thought about it or considered it.