The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[Cee]

Jesus tells the story of Lazarus and the "Rich Man" among a vast collection of parables, one after the other, but because "Lazarus" is named it must not be a parable is the argument. So let's assume for a minute Lazarus ISN'T a parable.

Here's the things that must be true, according to the story, if it is literal:

• The righteous dead go to live in Abraham’s bosom
• The wicked dead can speak despite their torment
• People in heaven can see people in hell, and vice-versa
• People in hell can speak to those in heaven, and vice-versa
• The dead in heaven and hell both have bodies
• A drop of water is can relieve the torments of hell

Please show me Scriptures that indicate these are all true and were not just told for parabolic effect.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Okay so just so I'm clear. What you're saying is this: Scripture says they are ashes (their body), but then you add in there that their spirits are still burning... even though none of those Scriptures say anything like that?

Well, that's where the event of the rich man and Lazarus comes in, which people conveniently get rid of by calling it a parable. We have two men, the rich man and Lazarus who both are said to die and then we see their spirits down in Hades, along with Abraham, everyone conscious and aware. Since it states that the rich man died and was buried, then the only conclusion that the read is left with, is that it is his spirit that is in Hades. The rich man himself states that he is in torment in flame. Again, since it was already stated that he died and his body was buried, that it is his spirit that is suffering in the flame.

Now in order for this paradigm to be true. This would mean that unbelievers have a spirit, hades is a place where spirits are burning, the spirit doesn't get destroyed, it is eternal... even independent of God.

Nothing is independent of God! For scripture states that there is nothing in all creation that is hidden from Him.

Are you familiar with the word "anastasis" translated as "Resurrection" and it's meaning? Both the righteous and the wicked will receive resurrected bodies. The righteous will be resurrected, immortal and glorified in the joy of God and His kingdom. While the wicked will also receive a resurrected body, one which will endure the punishment of the lake of fire and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment to be judged and then thrown into the lake of fire. Their resurrected bodies will endure the flame, not burning up, but will feel the torment of it, which is how the scripture can say, "the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever. And they will have no rest day or night."

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I can't change my post now, but I just reread it. And I'm sorry if my tone appears to be rude. I was trying to be descriptive, but it came off as belittling. This is an annoying topic for me because it's one of those topics that people rarely change their mind on. Yet I can't seem to not discuss it because it's such a big deal in the grand scheme of understanding the gospel. But Scripture IS overwhelmingly on the side of annihilationism. Do a word search for "ashes" and see how often it comes up.

"God didn't want people to perish so He sent His Son so they could have eternal life."

Take away all religion and ask yourself what is the most literal interpretation of this statement?

To perish IS an eternal consequence. To gain eternal life is an eternal reward.

Here's another NT Scripture about this:

Hebrews 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

Even the devil will be consumed and brought to ashes and be no more . . . . why would we think that we deserve a worse punishment by being burned and tormented forever?

So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching. All the nations who knew you are appalled at you; you have come to a horrible end and will be no more. Ezekiel 28:18b

 

[dcontroversal]

Jesus tells the story of Lazarus and the "Rich Man" among a vast collection of parables, one after the other, but because "Lazarus" is named it must not be a parable is the argument. So let's assume for a minute Lazarus ISN'T a parable.

Here's the things that must be true, according to the story, if it is literal:

• The righteous dead go to live in Abraham’s bosom
• The wicked dead can speak despite their torment
• People in heaven can see people in hell, and vice-versa
• People in hell can speak to those in heaven, and vice-versa
• The dead in heaven and hell both have bodies
• A drop of water is can relieve the torments of hell

Please show me Scriptures that indicate these are all true and were not just told for parabolic effect.

No offence bro, but points 3 and 4 are not indicated in the story, and Jesus called the place Paradise when he told the thief where they would be.....it is also proven by Peter that when Jesus ascended from the heart of the earth that he carried captivity with him and no longer does is house the righteous dead in Christ. AND....the last point is also not proven...it was assumed by the rich an that the water would cool his tongue....nothing indicates that it would...

To be honest....I am surprised at the fallacy of your points above....I have followed you in other threads and this type of reasoning falls way beneath what I am used to seeing from you....and my original post was not directed at you and when I studied in Seminary and studied the Greek and Hebrew it became all to obvious that the word dead and the idea of it meaning separation did not develop the way you indicated above, but rather the word actually devolved into the idea promoted today by most who use the word erroneously...

 

[dcontroversal]

I also want to point out a fallacy that is also being propagated about the devil being burned to ashes....if one actually studies the whole chapter God blends the devil in with the MAN that will be identified as the ASSYRIAN <--I.E. the 1st BEAST ) so called Anti-Christ) <---HE is the one who is burnt to ashes in the sight of men NOT the devil......the devil will be BOUND by Michael and cast into the lake of fire ALIVE....do you guys even read.....not being mouthy just surprised at how many jump on a band wagon without actually reading what is taking place.....

 

[Cee]

Jesus says be wary of the One who can destroy the body and soul in hell:

Matt 10:28 Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Cee]

No offence bro, but points 3 and 4 are not indicated in the story, and Jesus called the place Paradise when he told the thief where they would be.....it is also proven by Peter that when Jesus ascended from the heart of the earth that he carried captivity with him and no longer does is house the righteous dead in Christ. AND....the last point is also not proven...it was assumed by the rich an that the water would cool his tongue....nothing indicates that it would...

To be honest....I am surprised at the fallacy of your points above....I have followed you in other threads and this type of reasoning falls way beneath what I am used to seeing from you....and my original post was not directed at you and when I studied in Seminary and studied the Greek and Hebrew it became all to obvious that the word dead and the idea of it meaning separation did not develop the way you indicated above, but rather the word actually devolved into the idea promoted today by most who use the word erroneously...

I have no offense toward you, I don't see any fallacy. If Abraham was able to speak to Lazarus over the chasm, then believers and unbelievers would be able to see each other and speak to each other. Of course, I understand you're saying things have changed since Jesus went down to get them. The vast amount of Scripture says the penalty of rebelling against God is to be consumed and turned to ashes. And Jesus Himself says that the soul can be destroyed in hell.

 

[dcontroversal]

I have no offense toward you, I don't see any fallacy. If Abraham was able to speak to Lazarus over the chasm, then believers and unbelievers would be able to see each other and speak to each other. Of course, I understand you're saying things have changed since Jesus went down to get them. The vast amount of Scripture says the penalty of rebelling against God is to be consumed and turned to ashes. And Jesus Himself says that the soul can be destroyed in hell.

What do the following mean...IF they are burnt to ashes and gone?

Suffering the vengence of eternal fire

The smoke of their torment ascending forever

 

[Cee]

Well, that's where the event of the rich man and Lazarus comes in, which people conveniently get rid of by calling it a parable. We have two men, the rich man and Lazarus who both are said to die and then we see their spirits down in Hades, along with Abraham, everyone conscious and aware. Since it states that the rich man died and was buried, then the only conclusion that the read is left with, is that it is his spirit that is in Hades. The rich man himself states that he is in torment in flame. Again, since it was already stated that he died and his body was buried, that it is his spirit that is suffering in the flame.




Nothing is independent of God! For scripture states that there is nothing in all creation that is hidden from Him.

Are you familiar with the word "anastasis" translated as "Resurrection" and it's meaning? Both the righteous and the wicked will receive resurrected bodies. The righteous will be resurrected, immortal and glorified in the joy of God and His kingdom. While the wicked will also receive a resurrected body, one which will endure the punishment of the lake of fire and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment to be judged and then thrown into the lake of fire. Their resurrected bodies will endure the flame, not burning up, but will feel the torment of it, which is how the scripture can say, "the smoke of their torment will ascend up forever and ever. And they will have no rest day or night."

Thanks for the post. I understand your thought process now. Do you find it weird that Paul, Peter, Jude, and John never mention the word "gehenna/hell"? And that in Acts (30+ years of teaching the gospel), we never see the word "hell"? I do. Especially considering the everlasting consequences eternal torment doctrine believes will be given.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I also want to point out a fallacy that is also being propagated about the devil being burned to ashes....if one actually studies the whole chapter God blends the devil in with the MAN that will be identified as the ASSYRIAN <--I.E. the 1st BEAST ) so called Anti-Christ) <---HE is the one who is burnt to ashes in the sight of men NOT the devil......the devil will be BOUND by Michael and cast into the lake of fire ALIVE....do you guys even read.....not being mouthy just surprised at how many jump on a band wagon without actually reading what is taking place.....

I didn't know there was a man who was in Eden (except for Adam ), one who was the seal of perfection with every precious stone adorning him . . . a man that was anointed as a guardian cherub, a man on the holy mount of God; blameless from the day he was created until he sinned and was driven away from the mount of God and expelled as guardian cherub . . . his heart becoming proud (I will, I will, I will, etc) So God threw him to the earth . . . sounds just like the devil to me.

 

[dcontroversal]

I didn't know there was a man who was in Eden (except for Adam ), one who was the seal of perfection with every precious stone adorning him . . . a man that was anointed as a guardian cherub, a man on the holy mount of God; blameless from the day he was created until he sinned and was driven away from the mount of God and expelled as guardian cherub . . . his heart becoming proud (I will, I will, I will, etc) So God threw him to the earth . . . sounds just like the devil to me.

Go read the text.......and be open to learning and instruction!

 

[Ahwatukee]

Jesus tells the story of Lazarus and the "Rich Man" among a vast collection of parables, one after the other, but because "Lazarus" is named it must not be a parable is the argument. So let's assume for a minute Lazarus ISN'T a parable.

No, that is not correct! It is not only Lazarus who is named, but Moses and Abraham, the mention of the prophets and his five brothers. Why would you try to diminish it by just mentioning Lazarus?

Here's the things that must be true, according to the story, if it is literal:

• The righteous dead go to live in Abraham’s bosom

• 
  
• Incorrect! Abraham's bosom is not a location, but the scripture says he was taken to Abraham side. Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were all down in Sheol/Hades. Abraham and Lazarus were in an area that was separated by a large chasm, where the rich man was on the other side in the place of torment in flame.
• 
  
• The wicked dead can speak despite their torment

True

People in hell can speak to those in heaven, and vice-versa
People in haven and see people in hell, and vice-versa

False!

As I previously pointed out, Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man, were all in Sheol/Hades which is the place of departed
spirits. Both areas were separated by a great chasm, with Abraham and Lazarus on the side of paradise and the rich man on the
side of torment in flame.

• The dead in heaven and hell both have bodies

False! (where are you getting this stuff from?)

Both 2 Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22-24 state that when a believer departs the body that it goes to be in presence of the Lord.

• A drop of water can relieve the torments of hell

I'm sure that one drop of water could not quench ones thirst in Hades. However, if you are the one who is suffering there, one
drop would be better than no drops. It demonstrates the rich man's level of suffering to just want one drop on his tongue.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

19Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor. 20And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried.

So, at this point in the event, both Lazarus and the rich man have died and have been buried.

23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

Now, the verse states that the rich man was in torment. But we just read that he just died, so how can this be? The only conclusion is that it is the rich man's spirit that was taken to Hades and is in torment.

24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’

The body of the rich man is dead, but his spirit is there in Hades in agony in the fire.

25But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer. 26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’

The rich man lived luxuriously all his life and never had mercy on Lazarus by comforting him and giving him something to eat. Therefore, the rich man is not going to receive anything good. Between Lazarus and Abraham, a great chasm is separating them from the rich man from that place of torment. No one can cross over from either side because of the chasm.

27‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

The rich man requests of Abraham to send Lazarus back to his father's house to warn his brothers so that hey don't come to the same place of torment. But Abraham replies with "they have Moses and the prophets" meaning that no one can come back from that place of torment to warn those living and that they can read Moses and the prophets in order to be warned.

29But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’

30‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’

31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

The reference to "but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent" is in reference to Jesus who rose from the dead and people still don't believe in him.

I hope that you will consider all that has been provide here. Because I can tell you that both life and death are states of conscious existence, which is defined by an individuals state of being with God. Death has nothing to do with non-existence or annihilation, but is the complete loss of well being in eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.[/quote]

 

[shrume]

Why is it that you and others adopt existing false teachings and repeat them?

If only you could see the irony, ATW....

 

[Cee]

What do the following mean...IF they are burnt to ashes and gone?

Suffering the vengence of eternal fire

The smoke of their torment ascending forever

Here's similar wording in Isaiah 34:

34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none [shall be] there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

34:15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.
34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
34:17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

Here's more similar wording in Isaiah 66:

22“For as the new heavens and the new earth
that I make
shall remain before me, says the LORD,
so shall your offspring and your name remain.
23From new moon to new moon,
and from Sabbath to Sabbath,
all flesh shall come to worship before me,
declares the LORD.
24“And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

It's interesting because Isaiah 66 could be taken to mean that the Sabbath will still be in effect after the new heavens and new earth come down, which is what Revelation shows a picture of. And of course v24 is what Jesus is quoting here:

Matt 9:47And if your eye should cause you to stumble, cast it out; it is better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into Gehenna, 48where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I didn't know there was a man who was in Eden (except for Adam ), one who was the seal of perfection with every precious stone adorning him . . . a man that was anointed as a guardian cherub, a man on the holy mount of God; blameless from the day he was created until he sinned and was driven away from the mount of God and expelled as guardian cherub . . . his heart becoming proud (I will, I will, I will, etc) So God threw him to the earth . . . sounds just like the devil to me.

I understood what dcon was saying.
Those passages all go back and forth, first describing a human man and alternately seeming to describe more of a spirit leader or spiritual being.

They are separate, not blended in so much as dcon describes it. If you examine them, you can tell where a human man is being spoken of versus where a spirit being is spoken of.

The part you are quoting does deal with satan though. That part is not talking of a human man. At least to my understanding.

 

[Cee]

No, that is not correct! It is not only Lazarus who is named, but Moses and Abraham, the mention of the prophets and his five brothers. Why would you try to diminish it by just mentioning Lazarus?

• 
  
• Incorrect! Abraham's bosom is not a location, but the scripture says he was taken to Abraham side. Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were all down in Sheol/Hades. Abraham and Lazarus were in an area that was separated by a large chasm, where the rich man was on the other side in the place of torment in flame.
• 
  
• The wicked dead can speak despite their torment

True

People in hell can speak to those in heaven, and vice-versa
People in haven and see people in hell, and vice-versa

False!

As I previously pointed out, Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man, were all in Sheol/Hades which is the place of departed
spirits. Both areas were separated by a great chasm, with Abraham and Lazarus on the side of paradise and the rich man on the
side of torment in flame.

• The dead in heaven and hell both have bodies

False! (where are you getting this stuff from?)

Both 2 Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22-24 state that when a believer departs the body that it goes to be in presence of the Lord.

• A drop of water can relieve the torments of hell

I'm sure that one drop of water could not quench ones thirst in Hades. However, if you are the one who is suffering there, one
drop would be better than no drops. It demonstrates the rich man's level of suffering to just want one drop on his tongue.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

19Now there was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who lived each day in joyous splendor. 20And a beggar named Lazarus lay at his gate, covered with sores 21and longing to be fed with the crumbs that fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried.

So, at this point in the event, both Lazarus and the rich man have died and have been buried.

23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

Now, the verse states that the rich man was in torment. But we just read that he just died, so how can this be? The only conclusion is that it is the rich man's spirit that was taken to Hades and is in torment.

24So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’

The body of the rich man is dead, but his spirit is there in Hades in agony in the fire.

25But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer. 26And besides all this, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that even those who wish cannot cross from here to you, nor can anyone cross from there to us.’

The rich man lived luxuriously all his life and never had mercy on Lazarus by comforting him and giving him something to eat. Therefore, the rich man is not going to receive anything good. Between Lazarus and Abraham, a great chasm is separating them from the rich man from that place of torment. No one can cross over from either side because of the chasm.

27‘Then I beg you, father,’ he said, ‘send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them so they will not also end up in this place of torment.’

The rich man requests of Abraham to send Lazarus back to his father's house to warn his brothers so that hey don't come to the same place of torment. But Abraham replies with "they have Moses and the prophets" meaning that no one can come back from that place of torment to warn those living and that they can read Moses and the prophets in order to be warned.

29But Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let your brothers listen to them.’

30‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent.’

31Then Abraham said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”

The reference to "but if someone is sent to them from the dead, they will repent" is in reference to Jesus who rose from the dead and people still don't believe in him.

I hope that you will consider all that has been provide here. Because I can tell you that both life and death are states of conscious existence, which is defined by an individuals state of being with God. Death has nothing to do with non-existence or annihilation, but is the complete loss of well being in eternal separation from God in the lake of fire.

[/QUOTE]

You're right not just Lazarus, I was mistaken. I believe Jesus quotes Moses by name because this parable is written as an instruction to the Pharisees who were listening. It sounds to me that you're saying we get the doctrine of eternal torment specifically from this story. And also through Revelation? And nothing else can give evidence of what happens to people when they die. Because when I quote other judgment Scriptures you are saying they only refer to the body. I.E. Body turns ashes, etc. But not the spirit/soul even though Jesus does say He can destroy the soul in hell.

 

[shrume]

The confusion concerning the term dead is what causes all the division....

Agreed.

the word carries the idea of separation and that is the best way to view the word.....when one dies their spirit/soul is separated from their body which becomes inanimate......and that is the concept that is overlooked....

A lost man who is spiritually dead will be separated from God for all eternity in the lake of fire <--this is the truth and the biblical application of the word dead as applied to one who is spiritually dead and cast into the lake of fire.

The idea that death is a "separation" and not death is a false definition of the word. It was made up to accommodate the belief that when people die, their soul/spirit continues to live. That is not what the Bible teaches.

Think abut the following verses....what is the point if one is dead, gone and not cognitive...why would they need to be JUDGED according to their works if their lot is to close their eyes, fall into oblivion and NOT KNOW ANYTHING or be cognitive? It makes NO logical sense whatsoever at all to pull the dead out of the sea, death and hell to judge the by their works and then cast the into the lake of fire if they will be oblivious and or not aware of anything that is happening or has happened.....but if the above underlined is applied...it makes complete sense....

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. And Hades and death were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You're right, it would be silly to judge people who were not cognitive of what was happening. While people who have died are currently dead, with no consciousness whatsoever, when they are raised from the dead to be judged, they will be fully conscious. That's why the judgments will come after the resurrections.

2288 thánatos (derived from 2348 /thnḗskō, "to die") – physical or spiritual death; (figuratively) separation from the life (salvation) of God forever by dying without first experiencing death to self to receive His gift of salvation

If people want to insist on calling death a separation, they need to know that it's a separation from life.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I can't change my post now, but I just reread it. And I'm sorry if my tone appears to be rude. I was trying to be descriptive, but it came off as belittling. This is an annoying topic for me because it's one of those topics that people rarely change their mind on. Yet I can't seem to not discuss it because it's such a big deal in the grand scheme of understanding the gospel. But Scripture IS overwhelmingly on the side of annihilationism. Do a word search for "ashes" and see how often it comes up.

"God didn't want people to perish so He sent His Son so they could have eternal life."

You are correct in that God didn't/doesn't want people to perish. The key word here is "perish." In other words, if He didn't send His Son everyone would perish because of sin. The same goes for everyone who rejects God's free gift of salvation. They would/will perish.

Take away all religion and ask yourself what is the most literal interpretation of this statement?

To perish IS an eternal consequence. To gain eternal life is an eternal reward.

Here's another NT Scripture about this:

Hebrews 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

Cee, you are doing the same thing with the word "consume" that people do with "death" and "destruction." Why does "consume" mean to you the destruction of body, soul and spirit? God can consume an enemies body by itself. The context will bear out what is being spoken of. People use that scripture about the righteous being like calves released from the stall and trampling on the ashes of their enemies. Obviously that would be speaking about the ashes of their bodies and would have nothing to do with their spirits.

 

[shrume]

• The dead in heaven and hell both have bodies

False! (where are you getting this stuff from?)

Both 2 Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22-24 state that when a believer departs the body that it goes to be in presence of the Lord.

• A drop of water can relieve the torments of hell

I'm sure that one drop of water could not quench ones thirst in Hades. However, if you are the one who is suffering there, one
drop would be better than no drops. It demonstrates the rich man's level of suffering to just want one drop on his tongue.

If the dead don't have bodies, what are they going to do with a drop of water?

 

[Cee]

You are correct in that God didn't/doesn't want people to perish. The key word here is "perish." In other words, if He didn't send His Son everyone would perish because of sin. The same goes for everyone who rejects God's free gift of salvation. They would/will perish.



Cee, you are doing the same thing with the word "consume" that people do with "death" and "destruction." Why does "consume" mean to you the destruction of body, soul and spirit? God can consume an enemies body by itself. The context will bear out what is being spoken of. People use that scripture about the righteous being like calves released from the stall and trampling on the ashes of their enemies. Obviously that would be speaking about the ashes of their bodies and would have nothing to do with their spirits.

Yes, I understand your stance now. You're saying "ashes" only refers to the bodies, but not to their soul/spirit.