No soul sleep
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#1 - Did God by inspiration have Ecclesiastes written?
#2 - The written word "witnesses" to the things of God . . .
#3 - Where does it say and specify "eye-witnesses"? We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses - those listed in Hebrews 11 - attesting to the fact that faith/belief/trust is the substance of things hoped. To enable us to lay aside every weight and the sin which does so easily beset us and let us run with patience the race that is set before us - e.g. - as those before us have witnessed by their life of faith/belief/trust in God.
#4 - Doesn't say they are up there watching us run the race.
#2 - The written word "witnesses" to the things of God . . .
#3 - Where does it say and specify "eye-witnesses"? We are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses - those listed in Hebrews 11 - attesting to the fact that faith/belief/trust is the substance of things hoped. To enable us to lay aside every weight and the sin which does so easily beset us and let us run with patience the race that is set before us - e.g. - as those before us have witnessed by their life of faith/belief/trust in God.
#4 - Doesn't say they are up there watching us run the race.
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I see waggles gave you a "disagree" on that, but he is wrong.
There are many who try to force the scripture above (2 Cor.5:6) and Philippians 1:22-24 as Paul referring to the resurrection. However, in both of the scriptures the departure of the spirit from the body at the time of death is what they are referring to. Where the resurrection has to do with the spirit returning and being reunited with the resurrected body. So the scriptures above are referring to departing from the body at the time of death to go and be in presence of Christ, while the resurrection has to do with the spirit returning to the body.
There are many who try to force the scripture above (2 Cor.5:6) and Philippians 1:22-24 as Paul referring to the resurrection. However, in both of the scriptures the departure of the spirit from the body at the time of death is what they are referring to. Where the resurrection has to do with the spirit returning and being reunited with the resurrected body. So the scriptures above are referring to departing from the body at the time of death to go and be in presence of Christ, while the resurrection has to do with the spirit returning to the body.
if you had read the verse, it says "God testifying of his gifts", not they that are dead.
you reject the clear verse below also
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is,
the Son of Man who is in heaven.
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,
who is in the bosom of the Father, Hehas declared Him
you reject the clear verse below also
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is,
the Son of Man who is in heaven.
No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,
who is in the bosom of the Father, Hehas declared Him
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No I do not reject this verse. Neither do I misinterpret it. Christ spoke these words even though both Enoch and Elijah had been taken up to Heaven. So what was Christ saying in context?
The ascension of Christ would be UNIQUE in that He would be the only Man to conquer death and ascend up to Heaven by His own power. Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven by God's power, but they simply could not ascend to Heaven because they wished it to be so. God "took them".
On the other hand Christ came down from Heaven by His own power and volition (no doubt with the involvement of the Father and the Holy Spirit). He would be the only Man to rise from the dead by conquering death, and then ascend up to Heaven by His own power (no doubt with the involvement of the Father and of the Holy Spirit, as well as the holy angels).
To underline the uniqueness of Christ He said "the Son of Man which is [PRESENT TENSE] in Heaven". So how could the Son of Man, being on earth and speaking on earth, be in Heaven at the same time? The only explanation is that He is God, therefore not bound by human limitations.
This is very simple to clarify. God the Father is a Spirit, therefore He has no visible form (Mormon doctrine being false). But God the Son took upon Himself a human body, and because He is the "express image" of God, He represents God visibly (and totally) to man. Thus "if you have seen me you have seen the Father).
The ascension of Christ would be UNIQUE in that He would be the only Man to conquer death and ascend up to Heaven by His own power. Enoch and Elijah were taken up to Heaven by God's power, but they simply could not ascend to Heaven because they wished it to be so. God "took them".
On the other hand Christ came down from Heaven by His own power and volition (no doubt with the involvement of the Father and the Holy Spirit). He would be the only Man to rise from the dead by conquering death, and then ascend up to Heaven by His own power (no doubt with the involvement of the Father and of the Holy Spirit, as well as the holy angels).
To underline the uniqueness of Christ He said "the Son of Man which is [PRESENT TENSE] in Heaven". So how could the Son of Man, being on earth and speaking on earth, be in Heaven at the same time? The only explanation is that He is God, therefore not bound by human limitations.
This is very simple to clarify. God the Father is a Spirit, therefore He has no visible form (Mormon doctrine being false). But God the Son took upon Himself a human body, and because He is the "express image" of God, He represents God visibly (and totally) to man. Thus "if you have seen me you have seen the Father).
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Enoch and Elijah [did not] go to heaven
Heaven Defined
“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them”
This word heavens refers to two different heavens. (Gen. 2:1)
The first heaven consists of the Earth’s atmosphere. The second heaven is
the vast reaches of space beyond the atmosphere.
There is also a third heaven: the home of God. The Apostle Paul saw this “third heaven,”
where God’s throne is, in a vision (ii Cor. 12:1-2). This vision was so intensely realistic
that Paul was unable to tell if he was physically there, or if he was seeing it in his mind.
In Heb. 4:14, the phrase “into the heavens,” should be translated “through the heavens.”
We see that Jesus Christ passed through the first two heavens—Earth’s atmosphere and
outer space—as He ascended to the third heaven.
John 3:13 reveals that no man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.
Certainly many have ascended to the first and second heavens by aircraft, spacecraft and
other means,this verse can only refer to the third heaven, where the Almighty God resides.
Some have said that Elijah ascended to heaven, which he did—but not to the third
heaven. He was taken by chariots of fire up into the first heaven (ii Kings 2:11).
The Hebrew word used for heaven here is the same as in Genesis 2:1.
Elijah did not die during this experience. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram
years after this event (ii Chron. 21:12). Elijah had been miraculously transported to
another location on Earth.
Heaven is not, as some believe, the future home of any man, righteous or not.
Revelation 5:10 shows that God’s saints will reign not in heaven but “on the earth.”
Revelation 21 and 22 describe the coming time when God the Father and heavenly
Jerusalem will come down to Earth after it has been purified. In other words, man
is not going to heaven—God is coming here![/QUOTE]
Heaven Defined
“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them”
This word heavens refers to two different heavens. (Gen. 2:1)
The first heaven consists of the Earth’s atmosphere. The second heaven is
the vast reaches of space beyond the atmosphere.
There is also a third heaven: the home of God. The Apostle Paul saw this “third heaven,”
where God’s throne is, in a vision (ii Cor. 12:1-2). This vision was so intensely realistic
that Paul was unable to tell if he was physically there, or if he was seeing it in his mind.
In Heb. 4:14, the phrase “into the heavens,” should be translated “through the heavens.”
We see that Jesus Christ passed through the first two heavens—Earth’s atmosphere and
outer space—as He ascended to the third heaven.
John 3:13 reveals that no man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.
Certainly many have ascended to the first and second heavens by aircraft, spacecraft and
other means,this verse can only refer to the third heaven, where the Almighty God resides.
Some have said that Elijah ascended to heaven, which he did—but not to the third
heaven. He was taken by chariots of fire up into the first heaven (ii Kings 2:11).
The Hebrew word used for heaven here is the same as in Genesis 2:1.
Elijah did not die during this experience. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram
years after this event (ii Chron. 21:12). Elijah had been miraculously transported to
another location on Earth.
Heaven is not, as some believe, the future home of any man, righteous or not.
Revelation 5:10 shows that God’s saints will reign not in heaven but “on the earth.”
Revelation 21 and 22 describe the coming time when God the Father and heavenly
Jerusalem will come down to Earth after it has been purified. In other words, man
is not going to heaven—God is coming here![/QUOTE]
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Jesus Himself said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man"
(John 3:13)
Enoch Walked With God (Gen. 5:22)
At the age of 65 Enoch had a son named Methuselah.
"And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah
three hundred years, and he begat sons and daughters"
.
Hebrews 11:6 the apostle said, "But without faith it is impossible
to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
So He obeyed God, and followed Him in His paths by faith.
Amos the prophet said: "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"
The scripture says that he "walked with God after he begat Methuselah
three hundred years." So Enoch followed God's ways for three hundred years.
Moses did not record that Enoch [is still] walking with God.
"all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" If Enoch did
not die - if he were changed to immortality - and thus continued to walk with God,
then his days would have been more than three hundred and sixty-five years.
Enoch's Translation
Moses wrote that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God
took him" (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he
"was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb. 11:5).
That Enoch was not found because God took him, or "translated" him.
The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated.
Instead it says he was not found. Certainly Enoch was "translated,"
The original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi.
According to Arndt-Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament,
1969 edition, the primary meaning is to "convey to another place ... transfer"
Jacob died his body was "carried over"
This same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16.
Here we read that after Jacob died his body was "carried over"
- transported, translated - to Sychem where he was buried!
Jacob was transported or translated to the place of burial!
That is why Moses said that God took Enoch. God removed - translated
- him so that he was not found. God took Enoch and buried him!
In Deuteronomy 34:6 we read also how God took Moses from the people
after which he died and was buried by God. "But no man knoweth his
sepulchre unto this day." God removed Moses - God translated him - and
he was not found either!
He was taken away and was not found. All his days were three hundred
and sixty-five! That's as long as Enoch lived.
-
Colossians 1:13: the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath [translated us] into the kingdom of his dear Son." Here the Bible
says that Christians are already translated - but Christians still die!
Enoch is included by Paul (in Hebrews 11) among the fathers who obtained
a good report through faith; but"these all, having obtained a good report
through faith, received not the promise" (Heb. 11:39). What promise?
The "hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie,
promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2).
Enoch and all the worthies of old will receive the promise of eternal life
at the return of Christ, the same time Christians obtain it (Heb. 11:40)
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises."
Paul tells us: Abel, Enoch, Noah, and the patriarchs and their wives. Heb 11:1-12
lists those who had faith and Enoch is included among them. Then in verse 13 Paul
proved that they had not inherited the promises by saying:
"These all [including Enoch] died in faith." But what about Paul's saying
that Enoch "should not see death"?
There is more than one death mentioned in the Bible.
There is a first death, and there is a second death (Rev. 20:6).
The first death is appointed unto men (Heb. 9:27). That death cannot
be humanly evaded. It is inevitable, and that death Enoch died.
But Paul was not writing about that death. The phrase "should not see"
is in the conditional tense of the verb, having reference to a future event.
It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see" death - but that he
"should not see death." So this death that Enoch escaped by being
translated is one that he can escape in the future on certain conditions!
In John 8:51 Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my
saying, he shall never see death" - shall never see - that is, suffer - the
second death! And again in John 11:26, "Whosoever liveth and believeth
in me shall never die" - or "shall not die forever."
-
And Enoch will be in the first resurrection because he met the conditions!
The second death shall never touch Enoch,because of his faith and obedience.
Enoch had faith. He believed God and walked with God, obeying Him.
Jesus did not speak of Himself, but spoke what the Father commanded Him.
God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony,
that he pleased God."
Not only was Enoch figuratively taken from the society of his day,
but he was also literally removed -translated - so that he was not found.
God took him physically away from the people, just as He later took Moses.
And God buried each so well that neither has ever been found since!
but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man"
(John 3:13)
Enoch Walked With God (Gen. 5:22)
At the age of 65 Enoch had a son named Methuselah.
"And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah
three hundred years, and he begat sons and daughters"
.
Hebrews 11:6 the apostle said, "But without faith it is impossible
to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is,
and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
So He obeyed God, and followed Him in His paths by faith.
Amos the prophet said: "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?"
The scripture says that he "walked with God after he begat Methuselah
three hundred years." So Enoch followed God's ways for three hundred years.
Moses did not record that Enoch [is still] walking with God.
"all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years" If Enoch did
not die - if he were changed to immortality - and thus continued to walk with God,
then his days would have been more than three hundred and sixty-five years.
Enoch's Translation
Moses wrote that "Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God
took him" (Gen. 5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he
"was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb. 11:5).
That Enoch was not found because God took him, or "translated" him.
The Bible does not say that Enoch went to heaven when he was translated.
Instead it says he was not found. Certainly Enoch was "translated,"
The original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi.
According to Arndt-Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament,
1969 edition, the primary meaning is to "convey to another place ... transfer"
Jacob died his body was "carried over"
This same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16.
Here we read that after Jacob died his body was "carried over"
- transported, translated - to Sychem where he was buried!
Jacob was transported or translated to the place of burial!
That is why Moses said that God took Enoch. God removed - translated
- him so that he was not found. God took Enoch and buried him!
In Deuteronomy 34:6 we read also how God took Moses from the people
after which he died and was buried by God. "But no man knoweth his
sepulchre unto this day." God removed Moses - God translated him - and
he was not found either!
He was taken away and was not found. All his days were three hundred
and sixty-five! That's as long as Enoch lived.
-
Colossians 1:13: the Father "hath delivered us from the power of darkness,
and hath [translated us] into the kingdom of his dear Son." Here the Bible
says that Christians are already translated - but Christians still die!
Enoch is included by Paul (in Hebrews 11) among the fathers who obtained
a good report through faith; but"these all, having obtained a good report
through faith, received not the promise" (Heb. 11:39). What promise?
The "hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie,
promised before the world began" (Titus 1:2).
Enoch and all the worthies of old will receive the promise of eternal life
at the return of Christ, the same time Christians obtain it (Heb. 11:40)
"These all died in faith, not having received the promises."
Paul tells us: Abel, Enoch, Noah, and the patriarchs and their wives. Heb 11:1-12
lists those who had faith and Enoch is included among them. Then in verse 13 Paul
proved that they had not inherited the promises by saying:
"These all [including Enoch] died in faith." But what about Paul's saying
that Enoch "should not see death"?
There is more than one death mentioned in the Bible.
There is a first death, and there is a second death (Rev. 20:6).
The first death is appointed unto men (Heb. 9:27). That death cannot
be humanly evaded. It is inevitable, and that death Enoch died.
But Paul was not writing about that death. The phrase "should not see"
is in the conditional tense of the verb, having reference to a future event.
It is not in the past tense, that he "did not see" death - but that he
"should not see death." So this death that Enoch escaped by being
translated is one that he can escape in the future on certain conditions!
In John 8:51 Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my
saying, he shall never see death" - shall never see - that is, suffer - the
second death! And again in John 11:26, "Whosoever liveth and believeth
in me shall never die" - or "shall not die forever."
-
And Enoch will be in the first resurrection because he met the conditions!
The second death shall never touch Enoch,because of his faith and obedience.
Enoch had faith. He believed God and walked with God, obeying Him.
Jesus did not speak of Himself, but spoke what the Father commanded Him.
God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony,
that he pleased God."
Not only was Enoch figuratively taken from the society of his day,
but he was also literally removed -translated - so that he was not found.
God took him physically away from the people, just as He later took Moses.
And God buried each so well that neither has ever been found since!
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J
Ok this made me chuckle a bit,because...
1.you really are "vague" and not really "establishing" a "point"
2.Sleeping witnesses aren't witnesses,hahaha didn't the disciples "sleep" yet they were witnesses?
Anyways I realize your topic is "no soul sleep" and quite frankly throwing out people as no longer"witnesses" to anything in the bible for the sake of that they are "sleeping now" is pretty "silly" because all will give account of what they have seen and heard at some point so the point you are trying to establish is "moot" or otherwise "redundant" because I'm assuming you "have read the bible" concerning the "judgment seat of Christ" and even the "dead being brought before Christ as well as every other person who has walked this earth" so there is still a time to "be a witness" whether sleeping or not at this time after all "sleep" doesn't = "not credible or "not a witness".
1.you really are "vague" and not really "establishing" a "point"
2.Sleeping witnesses aren't witnesses,hahaha didn't the disciples "sleep" yet they were witnesses?
Anyways I realize your topic is "no soul sleep" and quite frankly throwing out people as no longer"witnesses" to anything in the bible for the sake of that they are "sleeping now" is pretty "silly" because all will give account of what they have seen and heard at some point so the point you are trying to establish is "moot" or otherwise "redundant" because I'm assuming you "have read the bible" concerning the "judgment seat of Christ" and even the "dead being brought before Christ as well as every other person who has walked this earth" so there is still a time to "be a witness" whether sleeping or not at this time after all "sleep" doesn't = "not credible or "not a witness".
Hebrews 11:4 (NKJV)
By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness
that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness
that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
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