The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[shrume]

I'm sorry if I offended you, I was just trying to offer a different perspective. I didn't mean to suggest you haven't given it thought, but was offering another way for you to consider things. How do you reconcile God's justice, and obliterating everyone equally, with considering they are being judged according to their works?

And Ben, lets flip your question around. Suppose there is someone whose only big sin was not accepting Jesus Christ, and another person was wicked their entire adult life, blaspheming God, murdering, raping, responsible for much evil. How is it fair for both of them to suffer in torments in hell -forever-?

 

[Ahwatukee]

I think you need to learn that you don't know everything and that there is still more to learn - even for you.

I agree as I don't know everything! Which is why I study everyday, as I have for over 40 years. And I am attempting to share that information with you regarding this subject.

 

[Ahwatukee]

That is such a loving god [sic] you serve, if you can't quite figure out how to serve him or if you just can't cut it in the program, he is going to torture you forever in flames.

Oh wait! That is everlasting life in flames, not death. What is so hard to understand about death? Nevermind, Ahwatukee will just tell you that you understand nothing about scripture. Se la vie!

As you wish.

 

[Ahwatukee]

First, no, I do NOT mean they are in contradiction with each other. It APPEARS to us as if they are until we understand them.
Take one of magentas earlier posts where she lists a bunch of scriptures. They are some of the ones I'm talking about.
BUT, you are so convinced you know everything about the second death and are so certain that death means living that I don't believe you will be able to see the tension...

Actually, it is because I have already gone over all of those scriptures many times in the study of this subject. If you have scripture demonstrating that after people die their spirits are conscious and aware, what conclusion do you draw. Magenta and others run to Eccl.9:5 as a proof that the dead are non-existent, but the scripture doesn't say what they think it does. On top of that, they ignore all of the other scriptures and the definitions of the Greek words used. They'll just go down the line with one false apologetic after another.

So, the information that I have is valuable and has been garnered over many years, but I'm going to waste it any more on those who haven't done the studies and don't want to know the truth. You'll have to wait and see.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Revelation 14:9,10 Just say they will be tormented in the presents of angels. 11 says the smoke of their torment, like a memorial, a pictograph preserved by God as a memorial. The same thing is addressed in Mark

Mark 9:43,44 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

Having a maggot last forever, come on get real, this is a memorial, taped, filmed archived digitally or maybe just remembered by God.
You call this arising out of a cult, your just a child of the RCC cult, along with Calvin, Luther etc...

Deade,

Just remember one thing. When you stand before God and Christ and give account for how you handled God's truth, there will not be any room for smart remarks. And we will give account for EVERY WORD.

You -- and anyone who promotes Annihilationism -- is also perverting God's truth and making God a liar. And your explanation of these passages is just plain stupid.

So let's look at the truth in Revelation 14.

DAMNATION FOR THOSE WHO TAKE THE MARK
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

This is clarified for us here: And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess 2:11,12)

What does damned mean?
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2919: κρίνω
κρίνω; future κρίνω; 1 aorist ἔκρινα; perfect κέκρικα;
... contextually, used specifically of the act of condemning and decreeing (or inflicting) penalty on one: τινα, John 3:18; John 5:22; John 12:47; Acts 7:7; Romans 2:12; 1 Corinthians 11:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:12; Hebrews 10:30; Hebrews 13:4; 1 Peter 4:6 (cf. Winer's Grammar, 630 (585));

So damnation is God's penalty for those who take the mark of the beast or refuse to believe the Gospel (Mark 16:16). If a penalty must be paid, then someone must be there to pay the penalty. WHICH AUTOMATICALLY REFUTES ANNIHILATIONISM.

GOD'S WRATH IS EXECUTED IN HELL
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;...
If God's wrath must be executed and experienced in Hell, it means that there must be someone who must experience it. Otherwise this is meaningless. SO ONCE AGAIN ANNIHILATIONISM IS REFUTED

FIRE AND BRIMSTONE CAUSE TORMENT IN THE LAKE OF FIRE
....and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Unless a person is conscious to feel pain (in his body, soul, and spirit), torment is meaningless. SO ONCE AGAIN ANNIHILATIONISM IS REFUTED.

So what does "in the presence of the holy angels" mean? Since we have already seen from the context, that damnation is a penalty for sinners, and that God's wrath is executed on them in the Lake of Fire, so that they are in torment day and night, it is ABSURD to call this a "memorial" before the holy angels and Christ (the Lamb). What this tells us that the holy angels and Christ observe this execution of God's righteous judgment as it continues eternally.

THE TORMENT IN HELL IS ETERNAL
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Since there is fire and brimstone in Hell, there is also smoke. And just as there would be smoke if a person was set on fire on earth, there is smoke ascending from all those who are physically present in the Lake of Fire. If it "ascendeth up for ever" it means that the agony is eternal. SO ONCE AGAIN ANNIHILATIONISM IS REFUTED.

Mark 9:43,44 "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."

What does this mean? When there is a dead body in the grave, it is almost immediately attacked by maggots (worms). But in the Lake of Fire, this would be a metaphorical expression to show that the bodies are being attacked continuously, and agonizingly to result in torment. Yet they do not vanish, since it is eternal torment. What is even more significant is that "the fire is not quenched", which means that the fire of Hell is unquenchable, and lasts forever.

All of this is terrifying, and is meant to be a warning to sinners to "flee from the wrath to come" by repenting and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Sharing your thoughts is different than pronouncing yourself right and everyone else wrong. This is your habit. You never learn anything new. You can't, because you know it all already.

And 40 years of study does not mean you are right on everything. The Pharisees spent their entire lifetime on study of scripture only to have Jesus say they did not know scripture. (And no, I'm not calling you a Pharisee!)

 

[Magenta]

Magenta and others run to Eccl.9:5 as a proof that the dead are non-existent, but the scripture doesn't say what they think it does. On top of that, they ignore all of the other scriptures and the definitions of the Greek words used. They'll just go down the line with one false apologetic after another.

More of your lies. The dead know nothing is what Scriptures say, but you do not believe the Bible

 

[Cee]

I don't mean to be that guy, that ruins the parade, but can we just take note of something? If "death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire" how does anyone whose "name was not found written in the book of life" die and become extinct, if death was already taken care of?

How does one die, when death is no more?

Because no one else will die afterwards. Death is the final enemy to go.

 

[Cee]

No I am saying that the cults have invented the heresy of Annihilationism.

And it is evident that you do not understand the meaning of the second death. So pay close attention to the words of Christ, and do not promote heresy.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 22:13)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 25:30)

MARK 9
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

The Scriptures Jesus is quoting is from Isaiah 66 which is written about dead people.

 

[Cee]

I haven't seen anyone mention this. So here you go.

Hi Deade,

You're just misapplying scripture here. The mention of their torment is not "like a memorial or a pictograph, but is referring to the literal torment of those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. You're attempting to apply a parabolic meaning to something that is meant to be literal. That would be the same idea of those who attempt to apply the meaning of Palms 50:10 to Rev.20:1-7 regarding the thousand years.

Revelation is a prophetic book. It's not meant to be taken literally. In fact 2 verses later you read this:

Revelation 14:13And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

Are you saying this is a timeline of some sort? If so, then the evil people who don't believe are being tormented and then there is still death for believers afterward.

 

[Cee]

What also hasn't been mentioned is when death first enters the picture.

If you eat from this tree you shall surely... die. And what is missing? Adam had never died, never seen death, and now his sin became death for him. But there is no mention of any eternal torment for poor Adam. You'd think God might have mentioned this.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I don't mean to be that guy, that ruins the parade, but can we just take note of something? If "death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire" how does anyone whose "name was not found written in the book of life" die and become extinct, if death was already taken care of?

How does one die, when death is no more?

How is one eternally dead if one is not dead?

This is some strange twist on the you will not really die in the garden. Because now eternally dead is being made to mean eternally alive.

And it's as if eternally dead has now become not enough punishment. Now, eternally alive is the punishment.

It's one little swallowed error that has snowballed into something huge, in my opinion.

Even human courts of law recognize that you punish a man and then his punishment is done with. It would seem it would be godly to make a man suffer torment forever as punishment, and that our courts are too lenient to pronounce death on a man for his crimes. It is a human concept to say: death is too good for you - death is too easy for you. That is hatred, not justice.

What will a man give for his life becomes a farce if no man will ever die.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Scriptures Jesus is quoting is from Isaiah 66 which is written about dead people.

Dead people in Hell is what Jesus is saying. Not just dead people.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes, dead people held in hell until the judgement and second death. Er....I guess that's been changed now to: dead people held in hell until the resurrection, judgement and second life...

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes, dead people held in hell until the judgement and second death. Er....I guess that's been changed now to: dead people held in hell until the resurrection, judgement and second life...

Are you aware that the KJV translators unfortunately translated both Gehenna (the Lake of Fire) and Hades (the abode of the dead) as "hell"?

So yes, the unrighteous dead are held in Hades until the final judgment, at which point they are cast into the Lake of Fire. It is called "the second death" not because everyone is vaporized, but it is eternal torment and eternal separation from God.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yep, got it. Death does not mean death. Death means eternal life of eternal torment.

It appears that satan got it right when he said you will not really die...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If anyone needs a super decoder ring I've got a few extras.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I haven't seen anyone mention this. So here you go.


Revelation is a prophetic book. It's not meant to be taken literally. In fact 2 verses later you read this:

The saying that "the book of Revelation is prophetic and not to be taken literally" is an on-going false teaching. The correct way to read the book of Revelation is "If the plain literal sense makes good sense, then don't seek any other sense." One of the major errors made those who read Revelation, is interpreting what is mean to be literal as symbolic, which distorts the meaning.

Revelation 14:13And I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Blessed indeed,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!”

The verse above is a warning for the great tribulation saints who will be present on earth during the beasts reign and the time of his mark. They will be killed because they will keep the testimony of Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark. Their faith during that time will cost them their physical life. But by resisting even at the threat of death, the will be victorious over the beast. This is why it says, "blessed are those who die in the Lord form now on." The great tribulation saints are first introduced in Rev.7:9-17 and also in Rev.20:4-6, where John sees them beheaded and then resurrected after Jesus returns to the earth to end the age.

Are you saying this is a timeline of some sort? If so, then the evil people who don't believe are being tormented and then there is still death for believers afterward.

Those who don't repent and believe in Christ is why the wrath of God is being poured out on the earth in the first place, also known as the day of the Lord. If they die without receiving Christ and repenting, then they will die in their sins and will first go to Hades and then after the millennial period they will be judged at the great white throne and then thrown into the lake of fire.

The great tribulation saints mentioned above, will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath and that because they will have not believed prior to the church being gathered. If they had believed, then they would have been gathered as belonging to the church. But they become believers after the church is gathered and during the time of God's wrath. The majority of them will die because of their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and will resist the beast, his image and his mark. But by doing so, the will gain the victory over the beast and have eternal life.

I hope that this is beneficial to you.

 

[lightbearer]

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

First Vines states in regards to the word "a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." Just so everyone is clear that means dead as in being killed.

In Matt 10:28 the context of the word destroy is governed by Kill.

HIS verbiage is clear in that HE is referring to utter destruction by killing.

I like Vines. His work was one of the first I owned. But to be honest he is not the go to; though he did alright in that instance. The BDAG states this in regards to the word and the verse. He says that it is "Of eternal death".

To cause or experience destruction
act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Chariton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).

Hello Lightbearer,

I've already listed the definition of the words olethros, apollumi and apoleia translated as destroy, destoyed or perish. Here they are again:

Hello Ahwatukee,
Thank you for the greeting! Just wondering, House of dreams or Other side of the Hill?
Are you Crow? I am part Cherokee.

Anyway where did you get those definitions from? The verse to which is being addressed is Matt 10:28 in the post in which you responded to. The Greek word translated Destroy in the KJV is the word in question.
From Thayers on that word:

G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
Thayer Definition:
1) to destroy
1a) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin
1b) render useless
1c) to kill
1d) to declare that one must be put to death
1e) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell
1f) to perish, to be lost, ruined, destroyed
2) to destroy
2a) to lose
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G575 and the base of G3639

Once again, please see what is highlighted in "red" and underlined. Notice that the word apoleia also cannot be used to infer annihilation. Apoliea is the noun and apollumi is its adjective and therefore neither of them are defined as annihilation. And these two words come from olethros.

My friend Apollumi is a verb. Please see Thayer's entry posted above.

You have to go by the meaning of the Greek word used and not by the translated words of destruction or perish, which must reflect the meaning of the words that they are being translated from.

I know. The post you responded quoted the BDAG. Please take a look at the post again. As you know it is the go to in any reputable seminary teaching Ancient Greek. You can download a copy for your computer at e-sword or theword.

At $150 it is rather expensive but worth it. I also picked up a hard copy for my book shelf for $99. It is used but in perfect condition. I got that at 2nd & Charles in HBG. Pa. But you can get one anywhere.

If that is not for you at the moment. The LSJ; Liddel, Scott and Jones lexicon is free and easily obtained. As you know It is also a highly recognized resource when looking at the Ancient Greek. I don't know what you are using now. Can only assume it is from Bible hub or something to that affect. If you do not have esword or theword downloaded on your computer I would highly recommend that you do. It is nice having a complete library that you can build readily available at the press of a button. What is nice about those two and anything you download you don't have to be online to use them. You just have to have power.

 

[lightbearer]

Do you realize that outer darkness is the opposite of a lake of fire. Fire means light. Darkness is the absence of fire. So you should be trying to learn more rather than teach what you don't understand.

It has been said before and I will post it here. " The greatest thing one can know is they don't know anything". In order to teach and remain teachable we must not be clogged by what is perceived in order to be filled by what is not perceived; Jesus Christ.

It in all fairness this is a difficult subject Latour.