The cultic origins of Annihilationism

[Magenta]

I don't mean to be that guy, that ruins the parade, but can we just take note of something? If "death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire" how does anyone whose "name was not found written in the book of life" die and become extinct, if death was already taken care of?

How does one die, when death is no more?

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

You know, Ben, there are a plethora of Scriptures that attest to the fact that the wages of sin is DEATH, and that life is found only in Christ. Funnily enough, people ignore them when it comes to this issue. Suddenly, dead does not mean dead, and death does not mean death. It is quite peculiar.

 

[BenFTW]

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

You know, Ben, there are a plethora of Scriptures that attest to the fact that the wages of sin is DEATH, and that life is found only in Christ. Funnily enough, people ignore them when it comes to this issue. Suddenly, dead does not mean dead, and death does not mean death. It is quite peculiar.

But from where do you get that such death is extinction? Did not God say to Adam that they would surely die? It was physical and spiritual, yet look at the world around you. Many are dead, needing to be brought back to life in Christ, to be given eternal life. The wages of sin is death, yes, but what does spiritual death actually mean? We were once dead in sin, but made alive in Christ.

You believe those who do not believe the Gospel will be annihilated, obliterated, and cease to exist. Yet even in the verse you provided the dead were given up. They were still conscious beings, once risen, to be judged. How do each of these people get judged according to their works if they are all getting the same penalty (of extinction)? Will the man, thief, that stole candy at the corner store as a child receive the same penalty as the man who slew many in a spree? Or will their judgement be just, and with balance?

How do you reconcile extinction with justice? Just some observations I am making, and giving you something to ponder. Not trying to be definitive, just allowing you to reflect upon your belief, to delve deeper.

 

[Magenta]

But from where do you get that such death is extinction? Did not God say to Adam that they would surely die? It was physical and spiritual, yet look at the world around you. Many are dead, needing to be brought back to life in Christ, to be given eternal life. The wages of sin is death, yes, but what does spiritual death actually mean? We were once dead in sin, but made alive in Christ.

You believe those who do not believe the Gospel will be annihilated, obliterated, and cease to exist. Yet even in the verse you provided the dead were given up. They were still conscious beings, once risen, to be judged. How do each of these people get judged according to their works if they are all getting the same penalty (of extinction)? Will the man, thief, that stole candy at the corner store as a child receive the same penalty as the man who slew many in a spree? Or will their judgement be just, and with balance?

How do you reconcile extinction with justice? Just some observations I am making, and giving you something to ponder. Not trying to be definitive, just allowing you to reflect upon your belief, to delve deeper.

Oh, I see, you believe I have not thought about what I believe as if it were not Scriptural (despite the fact that I have given many Scriptures) and as if there is no depth to my thought process? Wow. No, your idea of God torturing forever after those who refuse His offer of a life more abundant is repugnant in the face of the knowledge of how just and merciful God is, when He has specifically stated in His word that the thought of burning people alive never came into His mind, and to say it does not only dishonors God, but profanes His holy name.

What I see people doing is ignoring the obvious and going after some apocalyptic verse in a highly symbolic book and trying to use a parable to throw over the plain teaching of a multitude of Scriptures, that life is found in Jesus alone, and those not found in Him at the end of this age pass into the second death.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Are you saying that God's mercy is cultic! Utter rubbish! The bible only intimates ONCE that it is possible to be eternally tormented...and that is for those who receive the mark of the beast. Otherwise all die who are cast into the lake of fire. This is called the second death. The death of the body AND the soul.

Man! We have a lot of uninformed, unstudied people out here Nehemiah! I'm amazed at the number of people who don't understand the meaning of death.

 

[Magenta]

Man! We have a lot of uninformed, unstudied people out here Nehemiah! I'm amazed at the number of people who don't understand the meaning of death.

You are one of those who say dead does not mean dead You endlessly complain about people not accepting words at face value, when you do the very same thing.

 

[dcontroversal]

God can eternally save and he eternally punishes.....end of story.....either the smoke of their torment ascends forever is a flat deceptive lie or it means exactly what it states......

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

The smoke of their torment rising forever does not, in my opinion, have to mean that THEY are in torment forever.

And when you put all of the verses together, including the ones that seem to say something other than eternal pain and suffering, then you are getting somewhere. Then you are understanding the balance. (Or are working towards understanding the balance).

 

[Ahwatukee]

You are one of those who say dead does not mean dead You endlessly complain about people not accepting words at face value, when you do the very same thing.

As I have said many times and as scripture supports, dead does not mean unconsciousness or non-existence. For example, we have gone over the event of the rich man and Lazarus many times which demonstrates two men both dying and yet there spirits depart and are revealed to be down in Hades. In order to get rid of this scriptural proof, you and others interpret the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable. Likewise, Jesus told the man next to him saying "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise." How could Jesus promise the man that they would be in paradise that very day if they both physically died that day. You and others don't put these scriptures together to come to a right conclusion, that after the death of the body the spirit departs and is conscious and aware. We also have the souls under the altar at the 5th seal who are said to have died at the hands of the inhabitants of the earth. Yet, they are conscious and aware, having a conversation with the Lord and are give robes to wear. Add that to the understanding that the spirit/soul is conscious and aware after the death of the body.

I have given you the definition of the word olethros, which comes from apoleia and its adjective apollumi, which clearly states that none of those words imply annihilation or extinction, but complete loss of well being and eternal ruination, but you will not admit it. You continue to be apply your own definition of "destroy or punish" translated from the words above, to mean obliteration, annihilation or extinction.

You and those who believe like you are just going to have to see it for yourself in order to believe.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It doesn't work unless you admit ALL of the verses together.

Without the verses AND the verses that appear to be contradictory/in tension to, as a friend would say, you are only a half baked cake.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The smoke of their torment rising forever does not, in my opinion, have to mean that THEY are in torment forever.

Sir, in order for ones smoke to rise up forever and ever, one would have to be existing. Because if your burned up and not one iota of you remains, then there is no way for the smoke of their torment to rise up forever and ever. I might also mention that the word "torment" is defined as torture, which also requires existence of the one being tortured.

How about the words "they will have no rest day or night?" The word "anapausis" translated as "rest" is defined as "cessation or intermission" i.e. no cession or intermission from said torment. Again, one would have to be existing in order to experience no cessation from their torment.

 

[Nehemiah6]

It is amazing to me that even when providing the definition of these words, annihilationist instead take the translated words "destruction or perish" and assign the idea of annihilation or extinction to them, ignoring the definition of the words that they are being translated from.

Exactly. But wilful blindness is a very serious matter. If anyone turns away from the light of God's truth in one doctrine, they will be allowed to become blind in other doctrines. This is evident with the cults, who do not even know true Gospel any more.

If Heaven is real for the saved, then Hell is real for the unsaved. That is how basic this is.

 

[lightbearer]

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” The words of Jesus in Matthew 10:28. Sad that you consider the words of Jesus nonsense .

Not at all. Those words actually REFUTE Annihilationism. Please check out the meaning of *destroy* in the New Testament as applied to the punishment of those who are unrighteous.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive


A — 1: ἀπόλλυμι
(Strong's #622 — Verb — apollumi — ap-ol'-loo-mee )
a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37 ; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6 , etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24 ; of the perishing of food, John 6:27 ; of gold, 1 Peter 1:7 . So of persons, Matthew 2:13 , "destroy;" Matthew 8:25 , "perish;" Matthew 22:7 ;27:20 ; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matthew 10:28 ; Luke 13:3,5 ; John 3:16 (ver. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Romans 2:12 ; 1 Corinthians 15:18 ; 2 Corinthians 2:15 , "are perishing;" 2 Corinthians 4:3 ; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 ; James 4:12 ; 2 Peter 3:9 . Cp. B, II, No. 1. See DIE , LOSE , MARRED ,PERISH.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

First Vines states in regards to the word "a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." Just so everyone is clear that means dead as in being killed.

In Matt 10:28 the context of the word destroy is governed by Kill.

HIS verbiage is clear in that HE is referring to utter destruction by killing.

I like Vines. His work was one of the first I owned. But to be honest he is not the go to; though he did alright in that instance. The BDAG states this in regards to the word and the verse. He says that it is "Of eternal death".

To cause or experience destruction
act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Chariton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Are you saying that God's mercy is cultic!

No I am saying that the cults have invented the heresy of Annihilationism.

And it is evident that you do not understand the meaning of the second death. So pay close attention to the words of Christ, and do not promote heresy.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 22:13)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 25:30)

MARK 9
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

[dcontroversal]

The smoke of their torment rising forever does not, in my opinion, have to mean that THEY are in torment forever.

And when you put all of the verses together, including the ones that seem to say something other than eternal pain and suffering, then you are getting somewhere. Then you are understanding the balance. (Or are working towards understanding the balance).

No offence, but do you believe anything the bible states...?

forever and ever.....TORMENTED day and NIGHT forever and ever is clear.....

 

[Magenta]

As I have said many times and as scripture supports, dead does not mean unconsciousness or non-existence.

And as I have pointed out many times to you, the dead know nothing according to Scripture. However, you want me to accept your view while you steadfastly refuse to accept the validity of mine. Then you and others like you tell me I do not believe what the Bible says simply because my understanding differs from yours, even when I give countless Scriptures that support my beliefs. Well, then, I will say to you that you are wilfully blind and refuse to accept what the Bible plainly states. How do you like being told that? You are so blind you have studied the Bible for forty years and not figured out that Passover is on a full moon. Nehemiah directly told me there was no such teaching in the Bible when that very thing was plainly stated (in regards to fear of death being the cause of slavery). Did he apologize for his error or admit he was wrong? No, he just went silent, because his pride is too great, just as is yours.

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved
for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing

 

[Ahwatukee]

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

First Vines states in regards to the word "a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." Just so everyone is clear that means dead as in being killed.

In Matt 10:28 the context of the word destroy is governed by Kill.

HIS verbiage is clear in that HE is referring to utter destruction by killing.

I like Vines. His work was one of the first I owned. But to be honest he is not the go to; though he did alright in that instance. The BDAG states this in regards to the word and the verse. He says that it is "Of eternal death".

To cause or experience destruction
act. ruin, destroy
α. of pers. (Sir 10:3) Mk 1:24; Lk 4:34. W. ref. to eternal destruction μὴ ἐκεῖνον ἀπόλλυε do not bring about his ruin Ro 14:15. Esp. kill, put to death (Gen 20:4; Esth 9:6 v.l.; 1 Macc 2:37; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 122; Mel., P. 84, 635 [Ch.] τὸν ἐχθρόν σου) Hs 9, 26, 7. παιδίον Mt 2:13; Jesus 12:14; 27:20; Mk 3:6; 11:18; Lk 19:47; B 12:5; the wicked tenants κακοὺς κακῶς ἀ. (s. κακός 1a) he will put the evildoers to a miserable death Mt 21:41. τοὺς γεωργούς Mk 12:9; Lk 20:16; τ. φονεῖς Mt 22:7; τ. μὴ πιστεύσαντας those who did not believe Jd 5; πάντας Lk 17:27, 29. W. σῶσαι (like Chariton 2, 8, 1) Js 4:12; Hs 9, 23, 4. Of eternal death (Herm. Wr. 4, 7; Tat. 11:2 ἀπώλεσεν ἡμᾶς τὸ αὐτέξουσιον) ψυχὴν κ. σῶμα ἀ. ἐν γεέννῃ Mt 10:28; ψυχήν B 20:1; τ. ψυχάς Hs 9, 26, 3 (cp. Sir 20:22).

Hello Lightbearer,

I've already listed the definition of the words olethros, apollumi and apoleia translated as destroy, destoyed or perish. Here they are again:

Oletheros:
ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

Do you see that part of the definition highlighted in "red" and underlined. That means that when the word "olethros" is translated as destroy or perish, that it cannot be used to describe annihilation or extinction, just as it says in the definition. Let's look at the other words translated as destroy or perish:

apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being

Once again, please see what is highlighted in "red" and underlined. Notice that the word apoleia also cannot be used to infer annihilation. Apoliea is the noun and apollumi is its adjective and therefore neither of them are defined as annihilation. And these two words come from olethros.

You have to go by the meaning of the Greek word used and not by the translated words of destruction or perish, which must reflect the meaning of the words that they are being translated from.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes, I believe what the bible states. No offense taken.

This is what always bothers me though. For every verse, there are verses in tension to it, verses that appear contradictory. And I am like a dog with a bone until I can understand them together. I don't like the whole set up in here where one side favors some of the verses and the other side favors the ones in tension to them and then they just argue back and forth over and over again about the certain topic they want to argue about.

I don't think any semblance of unity can ever be won that way.

So if some verses seem to speak of people in torturous pain and agony forever and ever and other verses seem to speak of eternal death, I want to understand them together, not just pick one side and begin firing away at others.

I don't want to argue, I want to understand.

 

[Ahwatukee]

And as I have pointed out many times to you, the dead know nothing according to Scripture. However, you want me to accept your view while you steadfastly refuse to accept the validity of mine. Then you and others like you tell me I do not believe what the Bible says simply because my understanding differs from yours, even when I give countless Scriptures that support my beliefs. Well, then, I will say to you that you are wilfully blind and refuse to accept what the Bible plainly states. How do you like being told that? You are so blind you have studied the Bible for forty years and not figured out that Passover is on a full moon. Nehemiah directly told me there was no such teaching in the Bible when that very thing was plainly stated (in regards to fear of death being the cause of slavery). Did he apologize for his error or admit he was wrong? No, he just went silent, because his pride is too great, just as is yours.

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved
for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing

Again, all that you are doing is interpreting the word "destroyed" to mean extinction or annihilation. What does the actual Hebrew word mean behind those translated words? It real doesn't matter though, because we already have the meaning used in the Greek. Your just saying destroy = extinction. That's all your doing.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And the other thing that bothers me dcon, is that eternal life is in the Son and I don't think men are born with eternal life in them. I see being eternally alive/existing as having eternal life. Admittedly, men say that eternal life will be of torture and torment, but it is still eternal life.

 

[Latour]

No I am saying that the cults have invented the heresy of Annihilationism.

And it is evident that you do not understand the meaning of the second death. So pay close attention to the words of Christ, and do not promote heresy.

Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 22:13)

And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Mt 25:30)

MARK 9
42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Do you realize that outer darkness is the opposite of a lake of fire. Fire means light. Darkness is the absence of fire. So you should be trying to learn more rather than teach what you don't understand.