Is eternal torment in hell fire Biblical
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What makes you say that? I have quoted the words of Christ which THOROUGHLY REFUTE any idea of Annihilationism. You can either believe Him or disbelieve Him.
What was Jesus saying? That the suffering involved with losing a limb or an eye on earth is nothing in comparison to the suffering and torment of the whole person in Hell. Then He added in other Scriptures "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched". That means eternal torment.
REVELATION 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
REVELATION 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
What was Jesus saying? That the suffering involved with losing a limb or an eye on earth is nothing in comparison to the suffering and torment of the whole person in Hell. Then He added in other Scriptures "where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched". That means eternal torment.
REVELATION 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
REVELATION 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This reply clearly lacks empathy and compasssion. No one but God knows what will happen when we die. I am so sorry for the loss you are enduring. Re suicide, most people who do this are not in the "right mind" at the time of the act, so I don't believe God is going to hold them accountable. Suicide has nothing to do with whether you are a good or "bad" Christian and everything to do with your mental state being off. Look around you. Most people hang on to life despite everything. They will try every treatment to prolong life. That is "normal". What is not "normal" is the mental state of a person who takes their life.
Second: Hell (hellfire or absence from God for Eternity) is not clear. If it were there would be only one interpretation of it. The words used in the Bible in their original languages Gehenna, Hades, Sheol ... all refer to the grave ... to death. (Read Rob Bell's book, Love Wins) ... He goes through a complete explanation of "hell". He is Evangelical, by the way.
Finally, how does anyone know that your brother did not ask God's forgiveness at the moment the act was committed. Nothing wrong in praying for him.
Second: Hell (hellfire or absence from God for Eternity) is not clear. If it were there would be only one interpretation of it. The words used in the Bible in their original languages Gehenna, Hades, Sheol ... all refer to the grave ... to death. (Read Rob Bell's book, Love Wins) ... He goes through a complete explanation of "hell". He is Evangelical, by the way.
Finally, how does anyone know that your brother did not ask God's forgiveness at the moment the act was committed. Nothing wrong in praying for him.
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Very well said. Jesus is incompatible with Hell. The concept of Hell came up, what? 8th or 9th century AD? It is a tool of the Church to control people via fear. Nothing more. Believing in God ... loving God ... because ... is what matters. Putting our faith into action ... like Jesus did .. that is the message of Jesus. The One who said "forgive 70 x 7 did not also say "and I will torment you in the worst possible way that I can for ETERNITY". No, just no. What also makes no sense is that God will send those of other religions to Hell because ... they were born into the "wrong" religion.
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im an attorney by trade - one of the most often used terms is "to weigh the evidence" At no time did Jesus say that one would burn in hell forever. dont conflict the term everlasting lake of fire with everlasting punishment -
the parable of the rich man and poor Lazarus was just that a parable the last of five that he taught on that day.
why didnt the disiples or Christ simply state that if you dont accept Christ you will burn in hell forever - answer - it wasnt a doctrine known to them.
the hell doctrine is a conglomeration of Coptic Egyptian , Greek and Roman doctrines that crept into the early church and wasn't codified until Charlemagne who by the way said it was and used it as a tool to control the church. They imagery many have of hell ca be traced back to the writing of Dante's Inferno - The Catholics picked up on that hard
That's where religion misses the mark so terribly - A Christian does what is right because he loves God and strives to please Him. If your doing what is right because you fear hell then you need to examine your heart. Using hell as a bullwhip to herd non believers through a church door isn't just wrong it evil. The Love of God and the Sacrifice of His only Son along with the Gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit was good enough for the early church and its good enough today
I get back to weighing the evidence - I have and I come down firmly on that side that those not found in the lambs book of life are either .killed (the second death) or punished (different degrees of punishment) The evidence that persuades me IS the nature of God - his justice would not permit such a disproportionate retribution i know that and somewhere deep down you know that because the Holy Spirit tells you so. and his love - God IS Love - period - where in the sermon on the mount did Jesus teach that love gets payback? where in that sermon did Jesus teach that Love is paused by wrath?
the parable of the rich man and poor Lazarus was just that a parable the last of five that he taught on that day.
why didnt the disiples or Christ simply state that if you dont accept Christ you will burn in hell forever - answer - it wasnt a doctrine known to them.
the hell doctrine is a conglomeration of Coptic Egyptian , Greek and Roman doctrines that crept into the early church and wasn't codified until Charlemagne who by the way said it was and used it as a tool to control the church. They imagery many have of hell ca be traced back to the writing of Dante's Inferno - The Catholics picked up on that hard
That's where religion misses the mark so terribly - A Christian does what is right because he loves God and strives to please Him. If your doing what is right because you fear hell then you need to examine your heart. Using hell as a bullwhip to herd non believers through a church door isn't just wrong it evil. The Love of God and the Sacrifice of His only Son along with the Gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit was good enough for the early church and its good enough today
I get back to weighing the evidence - I have and I come down firmly on that side that those not found in the lambs book of life are either .killed (the second death) or punished (different degrees of punishment) The evidence that persuades me IS the nature of God - his justice would not permit such a disproportionate retribution i know that and somewhere deep down you know that because the Holy Spirit tells you so. and his love - God IS Love - period - where in the sermon on the mount did Jesus teach that love gets payback? where in that sermon did Jesus teach that Love is paused by wrath?
Don't forget to include ...The Book of Life...as well.
To insure your assembly of evidence is not fragmented or is not lacking, I recommend a bible search of the following topics;
- Brimstone
- Cosmic Creatures
- Destruction
- Eternal Judgement
- Eternal Punishment
- Exclusion From God's Presence
- False Prophets, Examples Of
- Fire Of Hell
- Hell
- Hell Is Everlasting
- Hell, As An Experience
- Hell, Punishment Of
- Lake Of Fire
- Punishment
- Repaid For Deeds
- Satan
- Satan, Agents Of
- Sulphur
- The False Prophet
- Evil, victory over
- 1 more topics on Damnation
Logically, The Bible can not present ..eternal salvation....without presenting the opposing...eternal damnation...side and it does.
Timed out.....
Revelation 20:11-15 - And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Read More...)
Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Revelation 20:11-15 - And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. (Read More...)
Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Matthew 25:41 - Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Yes, the smoke of the substance, not the body deader than a door nail as the substance. Smoke will rise forever never to rise to new spirit life the essence of all life and a new incorruptible body
Dead bodies without the spirit essence of life return to the lifeless, spiritless clay it was formed of.
Hell is a living work (Christ, eternal God cannot die)
It why he gives us a clear example of the pangs of hell with Jonas and the Son of man. Jonas in a parable acting as the Son of man did in the garden. When he suffered the pangs of hell .
Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
Unto death...……………………………... not dead.
The companion verse
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.(the work of the father) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,Luke 22
In the parable above the Holy Spirit uses sweat to indicate he was working suffering for our sin was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Blood used to represent that not seen, the Holy Spirit , the work of pouring out his Spirit.
Not literal blood.
The Holy Spirit does not sweat.
Finishing the work just as indicated with Jonas when God moved him to the dry ground.
Suffering the pangs of hell is a living work. The dead know nothing
One reference Christ, suffering the pang of hell is a pattern or parable of the other... Jonas suffering a living hell... again both cry out for help to the same father in Heaven both were delivered.
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of "hell" cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.Jonas 2
And the Lord strengthened the Son of man and he finished the work of suffering the pangs of hell
Dead bodies without the spirit essence of life return to the lifeless, spiritless clay it was formed of.
Hell is a living work (Christ, eternal God cannot die)
It why he gives us a clear example of the pangs of hell with Jonas and the Son of man. Jonas in a parable acting as the Son of man did in the garden. When he suffered the pangs of hell .
Mark 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
Unto death...……………………………... not dead.
The companion verse
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.(the work of the father) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping for sorrow,Luke 22
In the parable above the Holy Spirit uses sweat to indicate he was working suffering for our sin was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. Blood used to represent that not seen, the Holy Spirit , the work of pouring out his Spirit.
Not literal blood.
The Holy Spirit does not sweat.
Finishing the work just as indicated with Jonas when God moved him to the dry ground.
Suffering the pangs of hell is a living work. The dead know nothing
One reference Christ, suffering the pang of hell is a pattern or parable of the other... Jonas suffering a living hell... again both cry out for help to the same father in Heaven both were delivered.
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of "hell" cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.Jonas 2
And the Lord strengthened the Son of man and he finished the work of suffering the pangs of hell
"And many who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, but others to shame and everlasting contempt. " - Dan.12:2
"and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." - Acts 24:15
Regarding your question "Where is a verse or verses showing that the unsaved are raised to life again" it is important to understand the meaning of the word "anastasis" translated as "Resurrection," which is "ana = up again and histemi = to stand, properly 'to stand up again, bodily."
I would also correct you in that, though they are being resurrected, conscious and aware, their existence will be a state of death. Below is anther scripture showing the unrighteous dead coming to life, i.e. resurrecting.
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." - Rev.20:11-15
The event above is the great white throne judgment, which takes place after the millennial period. This is where all of the unrighteous dead who have been in Sheol/Hades are resurrected and will stand before God for their official judgment for every sin they every committed, which are recorded in those books mentioned above. Those resurrected bodies will endure the lake of fire so that they are not burned up, but will endure the punishment of torment in flame. This is not considered life, but death. Death does not mean non-existence or annihilation, but is a state of complete separation from God in the lake of fire.
The on-going error is that, people in their thinking define death as fading to black, being non-existent. However, when comparing and cross-referencing scripture, it becomes obvious that the label "death" is defined by an individuals state of being in relation to God. Life being in a reconciled state with God and death being an unreconciled state with God. Both life and death are on-going states of existence. Death is a conscious existing state of being separated from God with a complete loss of well being, ruination in the lake of fire.
"and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." - Acts 24:15
Regarding your question "Where is a verse or verses showing that the unsaved are raised to life again" it is important to understand the meaning of the word "anastasis" translated as "Resurrection," which is "ana = up again and histemi = to stand, properly 'to stand up again, bodily."
I would also correct you in that, though they are being resurrected, conscious and aware, their existence will be a state of death. Below is anther scripture showing the unrighteous dead coming to life, i.e. resurrecting.
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." - Rev.20:11-15
The event above is the great white throne judgment, which takes place after the millennial period. This is where all of the unrighteous dead who have been in Sheol/Hades are resurrected and will stand before God for their official judgment for every sin they every committed, which are recorded in those books mentioned above. Those resurrected bodies will endure the lake of fire so that they are not burned up, but will endure the punishment of torment in flame. This is not considered life, but death. Death does not mean non-existence or annihilation, but is a state of complete separation from God in the lake of fire.
The on-going error is that, people in their thinking define death as fading to black, being non-existent. However, when comparing and cross-referencing scripture, it becomes obvious that the label "death" is defined by an individuals state of being in relation to God. Life being in a reconciled state with God and death being an unreconciled state with God. Both life and death are on-going states of existence. Death is a conscious existing state of being separated from God with a complete loss of well being, ruination in the lake of fire.