How do you deal with all the things Jesus said about hell being eternal and where the worm dies not. The Bible has said so much about hell, we can't just consider how loving God is. We need to consider all of Gods attributes, like His justice, wrath, righteousness. Hell is a very difficult doctrine but we must accept what Jesus said about it, regardless of how terrible it is.
Is eternal torment in hell fire Biblical
- Thread starter MarkWilliams
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Yes, terrible. People see what they read about it differently. No new thing there - we all understand some verses differently.
Some see eternal death as meaning: eternally dead for good, no reversing it - just eternally dead and gone. And some see eternally dead as being alive and in torment.
I have my suspicions that the lake of fire is death that for all eternity cannot be reversed. But I don't think one is alive and aware in that eternal death.
Others interpret it differently.
Some see eternal death as meaning: eternally dead for good, no reversing it - just eternally dead and gone. And some see eternally dead as being alive and in torment.
I have my suspicions that the lake of fire is death that for all eternity cannot be reversed. But I don't think one is alive and aware in that eternal death.
Others interpret it differently.
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I would be careful, when deciding what the Word of God says. We can't trust in our own understanding, we always need to pray and ask God to reveal the truth about any part of scripture that's not plain. Most of the Bible is very plain and simple, but some things are not. That's when we need to pray for understanding and guidance
im an attorney by trade - one of the most often used terms is "to weigh the evidence" At no time did Jesus say that one would burn in hell forever. dont conflict the term everlasting lake of fire with everlasting punishment -
the parable of the rich man and poor Lazarus was just that a parable the last of five that he taught on that day.
why didnt the disiples or Christ simply state that if you dont accept Christ you will burn in hell forever - answer - it wasnt a doctrine known to them.
the hell doctrine is a conglomeration of Coptic Egyptian , Greek and Roman doctrines that crept into the early church and wasn't codified until Charlemagne who by the way said it was and used it as a tool to control the church. They imagery many have of hell ca be traced back to the writing of Dante's Inferno - The Catholics picked up on that hard
That's where religion misses the mark so terribly - A Christian does what is right because he loves God and strives to please Him. If your doing what is right because you fear hell then you need to examine your heart. Using hell as a bullwhip to herd non believers through a church door isn't just wrong it evil. The Love of God and the Sacrifice of His only Son along with the Gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit was good enough for the early church and its good enough today
I get back to weighing the evidence - I have and I come down firmly on that side that those not found in the lambs book of life are either .killed (the second death) or punished (different degrees of punishment) The evidence that persuades me IS the nature of God - his justice would not permit such a disproportionate retribution i know that and somewhere deep down you know that because the Holy Spirit tells you so. and his love - God IS Love - period - where in the sermon on the mount did Jesus teach that love gets payback? where in that sermon did Jesus teach that Love is paused by wrath?
the parable of the rich man and poor Lazarus was just that a parable the last of five that he taught on that day.
why didnt the disiples or Christ simply state that if you dont accept Christ you will burn in hell forever - answer - it wasnt a doctrine known to them.
the hell doctrine is a conglomeration of Coptic Egyptian , Greek and Roman doctrines that crept into the early church and wasn't codified until Charlemagne who by the way said it was and used it as a tool to control the church. They imagery many have of hell ca be traced back to the writing of Dante's Inferno - The Catholics picked up on that hard
That's where religion misses the mark so terribly - A Christian does what is right because he loves God and strives to please Him. If your doing what is right because you fear hell then you need to examine your heart. Using hell as a bullwhip to herd non believers through a church door isn't just wrong it evil. The Love of God and the Sacrifice of His only Son along with the Gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit was good enough for the early church and its good enough today
I get back to weighing the evidence - I have and I come down firmly on that side that those not found in the lambs book of life are either .killed (the second death) or punished (different degrees of punishment) The evidence that persuades me IS the nature of God - his justice would not permit such a disproportionate retribution i know that and somewhere deep down you know that because the Holy Spirit tells you so. and his love - God IS Love - period - where in the sermon on the mount did Jesus teach that love gets payback? where in that sermon did Jesus teach that Love is paused by wrath?
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all will be raised from the dead and face Gods judgement. But my contention is those not found in the lambs book of life will die the second death.
Remember - for the wages of sin is death - so all who die have paid the wages ?? if that were true why waste time having a judgement? all the wages have been paid - NO i believe the wages are the second death
Remember - for the wages of sin is death - so all who die have paid the wages ?? if that were true why waste time having a judgement? all the wages have been paid - NO i believe the wages are the second death
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im an attorney by trade - one of the most often used terms is "to weigh the evidence" At no time did Jesus say that one would burn in hell forever. dont conflict the term everlasting lake of fire with everlasting punishment -
the parable of the rich man and poor Lazarus was just that a parable the last of five that he taught on that day.
why didnt the disiples or Christ simply state that if you dont accept Christ you will burn in hell forever - answer - it wasnt a doctrine known to them.
the hell doctrine is a conglomeration of Coptic Egyptian , Greek and Roman doctrines that crept into the early church and wasn't codified until Charlemagne who by the way said it was and used it as a tool to control the church. They imagery many have of hell ca be traced back to the writing of Dante's Inferno - The Catholics picked up on that hard
That's where religion misses the mark so terribly - A Christian does what is right because he loves God and strives to please Him. If your doing what is right because you fear hell then you need to examine your heart. Using hell as a bullwhip to herd non believers through a church door isn't just wrong it evil. The Love of God and the Sacrifice of His only Son along with the Gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit was good enough for the early church and its good enough today
I get back to weighing the evidence - I have and I come down firmly on that side that those not found in the lambs book of life are either .killed (the second death) or punished (different degrees of punishment) The evidence that persuades me IS the nature of God - his justice would not permit such a disproportionate retribution i know that and somewhere deep down you know that because the Holy Spirit tells you so. and his love - God IS Love - period - where in the sermon on the mount did Jesus teach that love gets payback? where in that sermon did Jesus teach that Love is paused by wrath?
the parable of the rich man and poor Lazarus was just that a parable the last of five that he taught on that day.
why didnt the disiples or Christ simply state that if you dont accept Christ you will burn in hell forever - answer - it wasnt a doctrine known to them.
the hell doctrine is a conglomeration of Coptic Egyptian , Greek and Roman doctrines that crept into the early church and wasn't codified until Charlemagne who by the way said it was and used it as a tool to control the church. They imagery many have of hell ca be traced back to the writing of Dante's Inferno - The Catholics picked up on that hard
That's where religion misses the mark so terribly - A Christian does what is right because he loves God and strives to please Him. If your doing what is right because you fear hell then you need to examine your heart. Using hell as a bullwhip to herd non believers through a church door isn't just wrong it evil. The Love of God and the Sacrifice of His only Son along with the Gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit was good enough for the early church and its good enough today
I get back to weighing the evidence - I have and I come down firmly on that side that those not found in the lambs book of life are either .killed (the second death) or punished (different degrees of punishment) The evidence that persuades me IS the nature of God - his justice would not permit such a disproportionate retribution i know that and somewhere deep down you know that because the Holy Spirit tells you so. and his love - God IS Love - period - where in the sermon on the mount did Jesus teach that love gets payback? where in that sermon did Jesus teach that Love is paused by wrath?
Consider too, that in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man cannot be in the lake of fire, because if he were, he would not be begging for Lazarus to be sent to warn his brothers, because the time of any warning would be over with.
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The eternal Lake of Fire is very real and people who will be cast into it on the day of Judgement will be in torment in it forever and ever as the scriptures clearly reveal..
But also the scriptures reveal that there is only 1 unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. All others sins are forgiven those who believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement Jesus secured for on the cross..
Suicide is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. So as a Christian i believe that suicide is a forgivable sin for anyone covered by the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..
But also the scriptures reveal that there is only 1 unforgivable sin and that is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. All others sins are forgiven those who believe Jesus and trust in the Atonement Jesus secured for on the cross..
Suicide is not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.. So as a Christian i believe that suicide is a forgivable sin for anyone covered by the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..
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The above is false, in that the apostles of the 1st century are the ones who wrote the information about Hades and the lake of fire. Regarding this, when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, he will say to the goats on His left:
"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Regarding those who will worship the beast, his image and receive his mark scripture says:
"If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
You would have to be conscious and existing in order to experience torment rising for ever and ever, as well has having no cessation of torment day or night.
The above is also incorrect. Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are synonymous, i.e the same place. Whenever these words are used it is referring to the place of departed spirits. The word eido is defined as "the unseen place of departed spirits" not the grave. The Hebrew and Greek words for tomb, sepulcher and grave, respectively is qeber and Mnemeion. Whenever the word Sheol or Hades is used, it is referring to the where spirit goes after death.
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Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Short Definition: Hades
Definition: Hades, the unseen world.
HELPS Word-studies
86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
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Tartaroo is mentioned by Peter as the place where the fallen angels are currently restrained an actual physical place (maybe its actually detroit). [/quote]
True! tartaroo/tartarus is used once in reference to the place of those angels that sinned, most likely referring to those angels who took wives from the progeny of men. Though the word is not found, I believe Jude is also referring to those angels and their being put into chains of darkness.
The above is false in that, you don't understand the scriptural meaning of death, which is not non-existence, but a state of conscious existence, the complete loss of well being, ruination, in separation from God in the lake of fire. Consider the following verse:
"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
In the verse above, the same word "aionios" translated "eternal" is used for both the state of the wicked and the righteous and therefore must carry the same meaning. Eternal life is on-going conscious existence in the joy of the Lord. Eternal punishment then mush also be conscious existence in punishment. You can't have one mean something completely different than the other. If eternal punishment for the wicked is temporary, then eternal life would have to be temporary as well.
Your error is that, God's love, grace and His mercy are for the living only. Once a person dies, their record is sealed. There will be no mercy, grace or love for those who die in their sins. The great white throne judgment will be a judgment for all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. This will in fact be where the judge throws the book at them.
Those having faith in Christ, He was held accountable for their sins. Those who reject Christ and die in that stated, they will be held accountable for every idle word that they ever spoke and that without any grace or mercy mixed in. For all sins must be accounted for. Ether Jesus was held accountable or the individual will be held accountable.
In the event of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man asked Abraham if he would send Lazarus back upon the earth to his father's house to warn his brothers so that they wouldn't come to that same place of torment. But he said that they had Moses and the prophets i.e. they had the word of God to warn them. There was no going back for the rich man and there is no going back for those who die without Christ.
The reason that the consequences are so harsh, is because all sin has been committed against the eternal, righteous and Holy God.
You're missing the picture here. Regardless of greater or lessor punishment, it will be non-the-less punishment. Just being inside the door is bad enough!
"Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Regarding those who will worship the beast, his image and receive his mark scripture says:
"If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”
You would have to be conscious and existing in order to experience torment rising for ever and ever, as well has having no cessation of torment day or night.
The above is also incorrect. Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are synonymous, i.e the same place. Whenever these words are used it is referring to the place of departed spirits. The word eido is defined as "the unseen place of departed spirits" not the grave. The Hebrew and Greek words for tomb, sepulcher and grave, respectively is qeber and Mnemeion. Whenever the word Sheol or Hades is used, it is referring to the where spirit goes after death.
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Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Short Definition: Hades
Definition: Hades, the unseen world.
HELPS Word-studies
86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
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Tartaroo is mentioned by Peter as the place where the fallen angels are currently restrained an actual physical place (maybe its actually detroit). [/quote]
True! tartaroo/tartarus is used once in reference to the place of those angels that sinned, most likely referring to those angels who took wives from the progeny of men. Though the word is not found, I believe Jude is also referring to those angels and their being put into chains of darkness.
The above is false in that, you don't understand the scriptural meaning of death, which is not non-existence, but a state of conscious existence, the complete loss of well being, ruination, in separation from God in the lake of fire. Consider the following verse:
"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
In the verse above, the same word "aionios" translated "eternal" is used for both the state of the wicked and the righteous and therefore must carry the same meaning. Eternal life is on-going conscious existence in the joy of the Lord. Eternal punishment then mush also be conscious existence in punishment. You can't have one mean something completely different than the other. If eternal punishment for the wicked is temporary, then eternal life would have to be temporary as well.
Your error is that, God's love, grace and His mercy are for the living only. Once a person dies, their record is sealed. There will be no mercy, grace or love for those who die in their sins. The great white throne judgment will be a judgment for all of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history. This will in fact be where the judge throws the book at them.
Those having faith in Christ, He was held accountable for their sins. Those who reject Christ and die in that stated, they will be held accountable for every idle word that they ever spoke and that without any grace or mercy mixed in. For all sins must be accounted for. Ether Jesus was held accountable or the individual will be held accountable.
In the event of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man asked Abraham if he would send Lazarus back upon the earth to his father's house to warn his brothers so that they wouldn't come to that same place of torment. But he said that they had Moses and the prophets i.e. they had the word of God to warn them. There was no going back for the rich man and there is no going back for those who die without Christ.
The reason that the consequences are so harsh, is because all sin has been committed against the eternal, righteous and Holy God.
You're missing the picture here. Regardless of greater or lessor punishment, it will be non-the-less punishment. Just being inside the door is bad enough!
im an attorney by trade - one of the most often used terms is "to weigh the evidence" At no time did Jesus say that one would burn in hell forever. dont conflict the term everlasting lake of fire with everlasting punishment -
the parable of the rich man and poor Lazarus was just that a parable the last of five that he taught on that day.
why didnt the disiples or Christ simply state that if you dont accept Christ you will burn in hell forever - answer - it wasnt a doctrine known to them.
the hell doctrine is a conglomeration of Coptic Egyptian , Greek and Roman doctrines that crept into the early church and wasn't codified until Charlemagne who by the way said it was and used it as a tool to control the church. They imagery many have of hell ca be traced back to the writing of Dante's Inferno - The Catholics picked up on that hard
That's where religion misses the mark so terribly - A Christian does what is right because he loves God and strives to please Him. If your doing what is right because you fear hell then you need to examine your heart. Using hell as a bullwhip to herd non believers through a church door isn't just wrong it evil. The Love of God and the Sacrifice of His only Son along with the Gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit was good enough for the early church and its good enough today
I get back to weighing the evidence - I have and I come down firmly on that side that those not found in the lambs book of life are either .killed (the second death) or punished (different degrees of punishment) The evidence that persuades me IS the nature of God - his justice would not permit such a disproportionate retribution i know that and somewhere deep down you know that because the Holy Spirit tells you so. and his love - God IS Love - period - where in the sermon on the mount did Jesus teach that love gets payback? where in that sermon did Jesus teach that Love is paused by wrath?
the parable of the rich man and poor Lazarus was just that a parable the last of five that he taught on that day.
why didnt the disiples or Christ simply state that if you dont accept Christ you will burn in hell forever - answer - it wasnt a doctrine known to them.
the hell doctrine is a conglomeration of Coptic Egyptian , Greek and Roman doctrines that crept into the early church and wasn't codified until Charlemagne who by the way said it was and used it as a tool to control the church. They imagery many have of hell ca be traced back to the writing of Dante's Inferno - The Catholics picked up on that hard
That's where religion misses the mark so terribly - A Christian does what is right because he loves God and strives to please Him. If your doing what is right because you fear hell then you need to examine your heart. Using hell as a bullwhip to herd non believers through a church door isn't just wrong it evil. The Love of God and the Sacrifice of His only Son along with the Gentle prodding of the Holy Spirit was good enough for the early church and its good enough today
I get back to weighing the evidence - I have and I come down firmly on that side that those not found in the lambs book of life are either .killed (the second death) or punished (different degrees of punishment) The evidence that persuades me IS the nature of God - his justice would not permit such a disproportionate retribution i know that and somewhere deep down you know that because the Holy Spirit tells you so. and his love - God IS Love - period - where in the sermon on the mount did Jesus teach that love gets payback? where in that sermon did Jesus teach that Love is paused by wrath?
I would say Gods eternal unlimited love and eternal unlimited wrath, are both His attributes. It seems we have no problem accepting His boundless love but we just can't accept His boundless justice.
I think we can't use our own sense of justice and apply it to God, for God is infinitely more just. So I don't think we are in a position to disagree with anything God does.
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He was still a Roman Catholic when he died, but I did share the Gospel with him a few days before he died and whenI skaed him if he believed that Jesus is the Son of God and that He was cricified and reaised from the dead three days later, he said he believed in everything Jesus said and did.
I invited him to my Church and he said he would come but it never happened, he dies only days before we were to go to Church. I feel cheated, just as I was overjoyed by thinking he would come to Church and be baptized he was taken from me.
I invited him to my Church and he said he would come but it never happened, he dies only days before we were to go to Church. I feel cheated, just as I was overjoyed by thinking he would come to Church and be baptized he was taken from me.