I have a hard time believing that you actually read what people write and consider it carefully...
Why does Eschatology divide the Church into 3 camps
- Thread starter MarkWilliams
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I have a hard time believing that you actually read what people write and consider it carefully...
It is a simple yes or no question. Do you believe in the literal ascension of Jesus going up in a cloud?
He is saying the beast is a future literal being represented symbolically in the prophecy.
If I say: that woman is like a rose - I could be saying she is beautiful but also has thorns that could prick you. Or I could be saying she always smells so nice. Or I could just be saying I think roses are exquisite and I think she is too.
Would ANYONE consider that I was saying roses are literally people or that people are literally flowers?? No! By my very language and by what you know of plants and humans, you know I am speaking symbolically.
Sorry that this is such a sock to you, but we are living in the last days and this is why we have so much false teaching going on, which is in fulfillment of the following:
"For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths." - 2 Timothy 4:3
This is why it is important for all believers to study the word of God, so that you can discern the truth from false teachings.
The word of God teaches that the church is going to be gathered and then the wrath of God is going to come via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and whatever plagues the two witnesses bring, along with the beasts kingdom, with Jesus returning to the earth to end the age after the 7th bowl judgment has been poured out. In opposition, Amillennialism has spiritualized God's wrath so that it is not literal and is teaching that the world is going to be Christianized in preparation for Christ's return. Regarding this, just keep watching the news and what is going on in the world and you can see that the world is definitely not being Christianized. To be clear, there are people who are still coming to Christ, but they are those last that God's is gathering prior to His wrath. In fact, here is what the angel told Daniel regarding the last days and is Repeated in Revelation:
"Go on your way, Daniel,” he replied, “for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified, made spotless, and refined, but the wicked will continue to act wickedly. None of the wicked will understand, but the wise will understand. - Dan.12:10
"Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy." - Rev.22:11
How can the world be Christianized based on those two scriptures above when it states that the wicked will continue to act wickedly and the vile will continue to be vile?
Below is what Zephaniah and Isaiah prophesied regarding the day of the Lord, the time of His wrath:
"I will utterly sweep away everything from the face of the earth,” declares the LORD. I will sweep away man and beast; I will sweep away the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, and the ruins along with the wicked. I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth,” declares the LORD." - Zephaniah 1:1-3
"Wail, for the Day of the LORD is near; it will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will fall limp, and every man’s
heart will melt. Terror, pain, and anguish will seize them; they will writhe like a woman in labor. They will look in astonishment at
one another, their faces aflame with fear.
Behold, the Day of the LORD is coming—cruel, with fury and burning anger—to make the earth a desolation and to destroy the sinners within it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light. The sun will be darkened when it rises,
and the moon will not give its light. I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity. I will end the haughtiness of the arrogant and humiliate the pride of tyrants.
I will make man scarcer than pure gold, and mankind rarer than the gold of Ophir. - Isaiah 13:6-12
The prophesies above by Isaiah and Zephaniah have yet to take place and will be accomplished through the literal events of wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Christianization of the world is not going to happen Mark. In Revelation there are only two plagues of wrath that give a percentage of fatalities which is the fourth seal and the sixth trumpet, a fourth and a third, respectively, which would be well over half the worlds population and that is not including trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor the fatalities that result from the bowl judgments.
I'm thinking that the Lord had you find this Christian Chat site so that you could find out the truth.
I think it is in Corinthians, I'd have to look. It's where someone had told them Jesus had already returned. So Paul was reminding them of all that would have to happen BEFORE Jesus comes again. We may be thinking of different passages.
You have made your point loud and clear; prophesy is symbolic and not literal.
Yes. Who doesn't?? It reads like they stood there watching Him go, getting smaller and smaller until a cloud passed by and they couldn't see Him any more.
It didn't say a cloud passed by. Jesus was in the cloud. It says he will return in the same way. So why are you poopooing Revelations about Jesus sitting on a cloud?
I did not say that. You have to apply your mind to what other people say. You have to work a bit at understanding what they're saying.
If prophecy is presented in a symbolic way, it doesn't therefore mean it is not speaking of a future time and event.
Just because John says he saw a lamb looking like it had been slayed, does not mean he isn't literally talking about Jesus. It just means he is doing so employing symbolism.
Yes, could be. I am talking about where the apostle was calming down the gathering who had been told that Jesus came back again already. Sorry, I assumed that's the passage you were referring to when you said eschatology was indeed of importance to Paul.
Correct. so prophesy is symbolic and not literal, if he wanted to literally present Jesus' death on a cross, he would have said Jesus who was crucified and not the lamb of God that was slain.
I'm not. You are reading what people say and coming to bizarre conclusions.
And here is my recollection of the passage I am referring to: As they were peering, straining their eyes, squinting,watching Him as He went, two white robed men came and spoke to them and said, why are you staring into the sky. He will come back to you the same way you saw Him go. And then, a cloud came and took Him from their sight.
And so you say I have said He won't return a certain way when I didn't even mention anything about that. You are quite difficult to speak with. You appear to want to argue with literally everyone, even people who are agreeing with you at times. In every thread you are searching for things to argue about with everyone. You remind me of Jimbo...
Then why did John look at Jesus and say: look! The lamb of God! He was speaking of Jesus. Jesus was a human man, not a lamb.
And you are saying that the lamb looking as if it was slain in Revelation is NOT talking about Jesus?
Nope, i didn't say the 'lamb that was slain' is not Jesus, all i'm saying is that most prophesies are heavily symbolic and shouldn't be taken literally.
Even at some point in Rev we are literally told that it is symbolic.
Rev 11: 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city — figuratively called Sodom and Egypt —where their Lord was also crucified.
I can't believe we disagree on something... I think this is a "first".... lol
See, I don't think that a differing understanding/belief in the "thousand years" is important at all. Jesus is going to return, either way. If one person teaches that the church will be "taken away" before this happens, and another teaches that it will be after.... does it really make any difference? One group will be surprised.... so what? It is still going to happen, one way or the other. Is the one group going to go "HA!!! I TOLD you so!!" ? Or are we all, as redeemed believers going to be so thrilled to be seeing Jesus that ..... WHO CARES??
To me, this is one of those doctrines that is left purely up to the individual believer. Believe it the way YOU understand it. We can be in agreement as brothers in all critical matters... and be in disagreement as brothers in non-essential matters. Splitting the body of believers over something non-essential is, to me, sinful. Now, if some members of a church would feel more comfortable worshipping in a place where everyone believes the same way (where IS that place, by the way?) then more power to them. Follow your conscience..... but....
We are called to unity.
S
SpoonJuly
Guest
I do not see the different beliefs in the timing of the gathering of the saints a test of fellowship.
I am a Baptist and while a pre-trib gathering is the majority, there is still a large number who believe in a post-trib time.
Be very very careful of those own this forum who are pre-trib and are the most vocal about it.
There are two in particular who openly attack those who disagree with them as being lost and preaching the gospel of demons.
They often take Scripture out of context, offer private interpretation, and personal opinions as fact.
They also speak of their years of study and suggest that they should never be questioned. They are the expert.
Study for yourself and never just accept what others, especially on this forum, teach.
Nope, i didn't say the 'lamb that was slain' is not Jesus, all i'm saying is that most prophesies are heavily symbolic and shouldn't be taken literally.
Even at some point in Rev we are literally told that it is symbolic.
Rev 11: 8Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city — figuratively called Sodom and Egypt —where their Lord was also crucified.
I disagree that just because a prophecy uses heavy symbolism, this means it will not happen. Jesus will come again. Will He literally be holding a huge sickle in His hand? Probably not. But this does not then mean He won't literally come again and that some men are going to die.
At 6:00 I have to go see a man about a horse.
When I say this, you think I am saying I have to leave and conduct some business at 6 tonight. You do not literally think I am going to buy a horse, but I WILL literally go to handle some matter of business.
If you study something for 40 years, you can't have it any other way otherwise who is going to give back those years?
kindly understand