Why so much confusion about salvation?

[Ralph-]

I believe most of us would agree that there is a great deal of confusion about salvation, even though God has made it very simple.

It's because we're living in a time of profound corruption in the church, and for that reason, even though we have the written word of God, the understanding of the word from the Lord is scarce. Just as it was in the time of Israel.

"In those days the word of the Lord was rare"-1 Samuel 3:1

.

 

[OneFaith]

Perfect love casts out fear, and He loves you perfectly. He does not want you to be afraid that you are not “good enough” to go to Heaven. You’re not “good enough”, and you never will be! That’s where the rest in redemption comes, Christ is good enough and you are in HIM.

Please don’t be afraid. God doesn’t want you to be afraid of losing salvation. You might could lose Him, but He is perfect- the Good Shepherd. He CAN’T lose you.

I hope this makes sense.

He will never leave thee nor forsake thee.

Perfect love drives out fear. So what does God consider love to be? "If you love Me you will obey My commands." Who here loves God so perfectly that they obey Him perfectly? Sure, if I were as innocent as Christ on my own, I would have no reason to fear. But that is not the case- which is why God says each of us must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Why? To stay in Christ, because if you sin willingly, purposely, without goal or effort to stop, There no longer remains Christ's sacrifice on your behalf. But if you fear to disobey God it is impossible to live in sin.

 

[wattie]

The crux of the matter is one of the differences between Armenianism and Calvinism, point 5. Who is right?

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

Also there is neither of these...
Saved by grace thru faith in Christ that is completely secure.

Not Calvinism because anyone who believes is saved. Not arminianisn because eternal life can't be undone.

According to Romans 10, John 3:16, John 10:28 among many verses.

What does scripture alone say?

 

[OneFaith]

Obedience to the Gospel is obeying God.

You have taken a verse which applies to the unsaved and applied it to the saved. That simply will not fly.

THIS IS THE RESURRECTION UNTO DAMNATION
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

I see your verse also says 'according to their works'. Verse Rev 20:13 says who 'they' are- they were the dead from the sea, from death, and from hades, it said each person was judged according to their works.

 

[Endoscopy]

We do have to repent Jesus told us to count the cost.

Being a Calvinist I adhere to OSAS. Therefore at judgement we are accountable at judgement for our failures but that doesn't affect salvation only our position with Jesus God incarnate. Where will we be? On earth ruling with Jesus. That will start the millennium.

 

[Endoscopy]

Also there is neither of these...
Saved by gracegt thru faith in Christ that is completely secure.

Not Calvinism because anyone who believes is saved. Not arminianisn because eternal life can't be undone.

According to Romans 10, John 3:16, John 10:28 among many verses.

What does scripture alone say?

It is obvious to the casual observer that you do not understand Christianity. The Apostles Creed was created by the early elders to define what a Christian MUST believe to be a Christian. It was created for 2 reasons. First to fight heresy. Second to allow diverse views about the word of God. These differences are acceptable with the understanding we just agree to disagree. Too many try to make these differences a litmus test of salvation ignoring all that is required is we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Today we have many gospel preaching denominations where each has some difference of opinion. Keep in mind however the 7 big protestant denominations have been taken over by secular ministers. Only sub denominations still preach the gospel. Gary North wrote a book about the take over of Presbyterian USA in 1932 called "Crossed Fingers". The sub denominations are under attack by these secular ministers who are motivated by greed and hatred of Christianity. The fight against Satan and his fallen angels is continuous.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

This is one of those tertiary things, I think. Some people believe repentence comes before salvation, others believe repentence comes after salvation. I am a person who believes it comes after, and sometimes very gradually.

John and Jesus both began their ministries telling people to repent. Repentance comes before any cleansing.

 

[Ralph-]

Being a Calvinist I adhere to OSAS.

You're probably not a pure Calvinist, but you are most likely heavily influenced by it. Most in the church are.

Calvinism asserts that the elect can not know they are of the elect in this life. Which only makes sense since Calvinism asserts that the true believer is signified by enduring all the way to the end. Well, you can't know that you've endured to the very end, showing yourself to be of the elect, until the very end. So you can't know you're of the elect until the very end. Kind of late to do anything about it then, but that doesn't matter anyway since in Calvinism it is God who decides who's going to be a believer and who is not.

 

[Ralph-]

...Calvinism asserts that the true believer is signified by enduring all the way to the end. Well, you can't know that you've endured to the very end, showing yourself to be of the elect, until the very end. So you can't know you're of the elect until the very end.

Oh, and that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and assurance.

 

[Ralph-]

Too many try to make these differences a litmus test of salvation...

Correct. Ultimately, it is how you behave that is the litmus test of salvation. But you can be sure if your doctrine is wrong your behavior will probably follow suit.

Keep in mind however the 7 big protestant denominations have been taken over by secular ministers. Only sub denominations still preach the gospel.

Now even the non-denoms are corrupted.

I honestly believe we are witnessing the great falling away. Now many in the church believe that even people who don't believe anymore will be saved when Jesus comes back. A horrible lack of spiritual insight and understanding of 1 Timothy 2:12-13. Just one example of the scarcity of the understanding of the word of God from the Spirit among the people of God that I brought up in an earlier post.

 

[Ralph-]

John and Jesus both began their ministries telling people to repent. Repentance comes before any cleansing.

Which I believe is the 'water' part of "water and the Spirit" in John 3:5.

The water of repentance all by itself, as necessary as it is, is not enough to see the kingdom of God. You must also be born again from above, by the Spirit. John brought the water part (repentance), Jesus brought the Spirit part.

 

[Endoscopy]

You're probably not a pure Calvinist, but you are most likely heavily influenced by it. Most in the church are.

Calvinism asserts that the elect can not know they are of the elect in this life. Which only makes sense since Calvinism asserts that the true believer is signified by enduring all the way to the end. Well, you can't know that you've endured to the very end, showing yourself to be of the elect, until the very end. So you can't know you're of the elect until the very end. Kind of late to do anything about it then, but that doesn't matter anyway since in Calvinism it is God who decides who's going to be a believer and who is not.

At 73 and being a deacon and elder (moved twice) in reformed view churches including Reformed Church of America and Presbyterian PCA I think I understand what the Calvinist view of today is. Calvinism as I pointed out with the Calvinism vs Arminianism believes that as the Bible states the carnal mind is enmity against God. Therefore God is required to touch the heart of the individual. The Armenian view is this enmity is not complete. We just agree to disagree. You confuse a point of disagreement with the Arminian view of losing salvation. Calvinist adhere to OSAS (once saved always saved) as stated by Jesus when he stated those put in the Fathers hand will not be taken from it.

 

[Endoscopy]

Correct. Ultimately, it is how you behave that is the litmus test of salvation. But you can be sure if your doctrine is wrong your behavior will probably follow suit.



Now even the non-denoms are corrupted.

I honestly believe we are witnessing the great falling away. Now many in the church believe that even people who don't believe anymore will be saved when Jesus comes back. A horrible lack of spiritual insight and understanding of 1 Timothy 2:12-13. Just one example of the scarcity of the understanding of the word of God from the Spirit among the people of God that I brought up in an earlier post.

Paul wrote about the internal fight he faced and all Christians face. That is the law of sin living in each of us causing all of us to sin.

Romans 7 NIV

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

 

[justpassinthrough]

I believe most of us would agree that there is a great deal of confusion about salvation, even though God has made it very simple.

The primary reason for all this confusion is the enmity of Satan and his evil angels against God and against humanity. The Devil desires all human being to go to Hell, since he knows it was created for him and his angels.

There is really no need to be confused when we take the total Gospel message and simply believe it. When someone comes along with another gospel, we should ask them a few questions, to which all the answers are "Yes" (according to Scripture):

1. Did Christ die for the sins of the whole world? Yes.

2. Does God desire the salvation of all humanity? Yes.

3. Are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ sufficient to be saved? Yes. If saved means born again

4. Is water baptism only for believers and is it a command to every Christian? Yes.

5. Does baptism signify that the sinner has died to self and sin, and is totally submitted to God? No. It may mean that person who is being Baptised is submitted to God at that moment, but does not guarantee this to be the case for the rest of their life.

6. Is eternal life God's gift to the one who believes? Yes. Defining eternal life and defining what believe means are necessary for full understanding.

7. Is the Holy Spirit God's gift to the one who believes? Yes. Believing, present tense is the condition for eternal life.

8. Does salvation include the New Birth, which means that the individual is a new creature in Christ? Yes.

10. Are believers predestined and elected to be perfected and glorified? Needs clarification.

11. Does that mean that Christians must forsake the ways of the world, and walk in the Spirit by faith? Walking according to the Spirit is obeying the Holy Spirit. Walking according to the flesh is obeying the lustful desires of the flesh. Christians who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.

12. Does salvation include justification, sanctification, and glorification, and are Christians kept by the power of God unto the completion of this salvation?

1. Did Christ die for the sins of the whole world? Yes.

2. Does God desire the salvation of all humanity? Yes.

3. Are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ sufficient to be saved? Yes. If saved means born again

4. Is water baptism only for believers and is it a command to every Christian? Yes.

5. Does baptism signify that the sinner has died to self and sin, and is totally submitted to God? No. It may mean that person who is being Baptised is submitted to God at that moment, but does not guarantee this to be the case for the rest of their life.

6. Is eternal life God's gift to the one who believes? Yes. Defining eternal life and defining what believe means are necessary for full understanding.

7. Is the Holy Spirit God's gift to the one who believes? Yes. Believing, present tense is the condition for eternal life.

8. Does salvation include the New Birth, which means that the individual is a new creature in Christ? Yes.

10. Are believers predestined and elected to be perfected and glorified? Needs clarification.

11. Does that mean that Christians must forsake the ways of the world, and walk in the Spirit by faith? Walking according to the Spirit is obeying the Holy Spirit. Walking according to the flesh is obeying the lustful desires of the flesh. Christians who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.

12. Does salvation include justification, sanctification, and glorification, and are Christians kept by the power of God unto the completion of this salvation? Need scripture and context to clarify.





JPT

 

[Endoscopy]

How many of you know what the law of God states. It is easy to say transgression of the law is sin. The law is scattered through the Torah. There are 613 commands. They are seperate into the DOs and DON'Ts. They are then subdivided into who and where they apply to.

In addition to the 10 commandments there are the laws scattered through the Torah.

List of the 613 laws in the Torah
http://www.gods-word-first.org/bible-study/613commandments.html

Discussion about the 613 laws in the Torah
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_commandments

 

[Ralph-]

At 73 and being a deacon and elder (moved twice) in reformed view churches including Reformed Church of America and Presbyterian PCA I think I understand what the Calvinist view of today is. Calvinism as I pointed out with the Calvinism vs Arminianism believes that as the Bible states the carnal mind is enmity against God. Therefore God is required to touch the heart of the individual. The Armenian view is this enmity is not complete. We just agree to disagree. You confuse a point of disagreement with the Arminian view of losing salvation. Calvinist adhere to OSAS (once saved always saved) as stated by Jesus when he stated those put in the Fathers hand will not be taken from it.

Obviously, if God determines who is going to be saved and who is not, based on his own determination, then a person can not change that. The point I was addressing is you can't know that you're one God has decided will be a true believer until you die because the criteria for knowing that is if you endure all the way to the very end.

 

[justpassinthrough]

The crux of the matter is one of the differences between Armenianism and Calvinism, point 5. Who is right?

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace

I don't study Calvinism or Armenianism, but I do what the scripture says.


You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4




JPT

 

[Ralph-]

Paul wrote about the internal fight he faced and all Christians face. That is the law of sin living in each of us causing all of us to sin.

Romans 7 NIV

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

This is definitely one of those passages where we can let it go as a 'agree to disagree' passage.

So without going into that matter, lol, I will say there is a distinct difference between struggling with sin, and living in it. Too many 'Christians' use this passage to rationalize living defeated in the flesh without a struggle and thinking they are saved despite that. This is a particularly common thing at this time in church history. It's based in a horrible distortion of Paul's teaching of how justification is not by works, but rather by faith apart from works. Many in the church thinks that means, "oh, I don't have to have works! Bartender, make it a double!"

 

[Ralph-]

How many of you know what the law of God states. It is easy to say transgression of the law is sin.

Especially since what it actually says in the KJV is "sin is the transgression of the law "

Can you see why that's an important distinction?

 

[Endoscopy]

1. Did Christ die for the sins of the whole world? Yes.
Calvinist state his sacrifice only works for those who accept his his sacrifice not the whole world. The whole world is not saved. Detail in the wording.

2. Does God desire the salvation of all humanity? Yes.

3. Are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ sufficient to be saved? Yes. If saved means born again
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. See John 3:16 in AMPC lower.

4. Is water baptism only for believers and is it a command to every Christian? Yes.

5. Does baptism signify that the sinner has died to self and sin, and is totally submitted to God? No. It may mean that person who is being Baptised is submitted to God at that moment, but does not guarantee this to be the case for the rest of their life.
Calvinist view says once saved always saved. See 1st scripture below.

6. Is eternal life God's gift to the one who believes? Yes. Defining eternal life and defining what believe means are necessary for full understanding.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. The AMPC puts all meanings of the original word in parentheses and brackets around clarifiers.
John 3 AMPC Amplified Classic
16 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

7. Is the Holy Spirit God's gift to the one who believes? Yes. Believing, present tense is the condition for eternal life.
Calvinist disagree see 1st scripture below again.

8. Does salvation include the New Birth, which means that the individual is a new creature in Christ? Yes.

10. Are believers predestined and elected to be perfected and glorified? Needs clarification.
Calvinist God knew the ending from the begining and foresaw the death of Jesus on the cross and did it anyway. This boggles my mind that as Jesus he would go through this for us. Since the Bible states the carnal mind is enmity against God Calvinist believe that to overcome this God has to touch their heart. He foresaw this from the begining who he would touch. All have the option to believe but harden their hearts against it. If anyone gets into a conversation with an atheist about God this comes through loud and clear. On secular forums I do this often. I am mostly bed ridden.

11. Does that mean that Christians must forsake the ways of the world, and walk in the Spirit by faith? Walking according to the Spirit is obeying the Holy Spirit. Walking according to the flesh is obeying the lustful desires of the flesh. Christians who practice the works of the flesh will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Calvinist see second scripture below about Paul fighting the law of sin in him.


12. Does salvation include justification, sanctification, and glorification, and are Christians kept by the power of God unto the completion of this salvation? Need scripture and context to clarify.
ROFL This theological terminology has always confused me to a certain extent. In a class I understand and agree but later it gets fuzzy keeping the definitions of the words straight.





JPT

ROFL
It is obvious to the casual observer that you are an Arminian in your beliefs. Calvinist disagree with some of your points. I will go into your post to point them out.

John 10 AMPC

24 So the Jews surrounded Him and began asking Him, How long are You going to keep us in doubt and suspense? If You are really the Christ (the Messiah), tell us so plainly and openly.
25 Jesus answered them, I have told you so, yet you do not believe Me [you do not trust Me and rely on Me]. The very works that I do by the power of My Father and in My Father’s name bear witness concerning Me [they are My credentials and evidence in support of Me].
26 But you do not believe and trust and rely on Me because you do not belong to My fold [you are no sheep of Mine].
27 The sheep that are My own hear and are listening to My voice; and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never lose it or perish throughout the ages. [To all eternity they shall never by any means be destroyed.] And no one is able to snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.
31 Again the Jews brought up stones to stone Him.

Romans 7 NIV

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord.
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.