Not By Works

benhur · Jun 13, 2018

Did Paul really say that: Jesus has reconciled us to God, If indeed you continue in the daith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away. Paul is the one that says it is by grace we are saved, not of works lest we boast. And here he is saying in order to be saved, we have to continue in the faith, and remain grounded and stedfast and not moved away from the hope of the gospel. Wow, geesh, wow.
That's impossible that Paul could be saying these words.

How do they reconcile this statement with ES?

NoNameMcgee · Jun 13, 2018

benhur said:

so if someone believes
has been baptized by the Holy spirit

but not baptized in water

and this someone sins

but still believes

if this someone dies

in the middle of performing a sinful deed

anything from a white lie
to murder

doesnt matter

if they die performing this deed while believing IN Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior
born again
baptized of the Holy spirit but not yet in water

is this person saved in your belief system

justpassinthrough · Jun 13, 2018

benhur said:

Did Paul really say that: Jesus has reconciled us to God, If indeed you continue in the daith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away. Paul is the one that says it is by grace we are saved, not of works lest we boast. And here he is saying in order to be saved, we have to continue in the faith, and remain grounded and stedfast and not moved away from the hope of the gospel. Wow, geesh, wow.
That's impossible that Paul could be saying these words.

How do they reconcile this statement with ES?

ES = Doctrine of Demons

JPT

BillG · Jun 13, 2018

benhur said:

Ben
The following is my synopsis.

You a few weeks back or possibly longer appear on this thread.
Willing to talk discuss.
People respond you respond.

Then all of a sudden you attack.
You attack OSAS and ES, just like your friend JPT.

So I ask myself what is your purpose?
Was it to discuss or was it a ruse to get your feet under the table then attack.

Are you attacking because you feel attacked?
Easily done, I know that cause I've fallen foul of that.
If that is the case I implore you and all of us not to fall foul of what we has been done to us and reciorocate accordingly.

NoNameMcgee · Jun 13, 2018

benhur said:

well it is very easy to believe the promises of God (what youre calling es)

and understand this applies to those who have genuine faith in Christ

and this does not apply to those who "move away from the hope of the gospel"

it is very easy to see how all of scripture flows in perfect harmony if you believe it all lol

which include the promises of God

benhur · Jun 13, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Whose ignorance is showing. You think EVERYONE who have lived on the earth have their names written in the book of life?
Then read this scripture:
Revelation 13:6-9 King James Version (KJV)
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Sorry, you are wrong again.

50C1AL0N3 · Jun 13, 2018

I have labored abundantly to abolish the sinful nature made known to me through my understanding of God's righteousness.
I found that with all my might and effort I would fail miserably. As I tried to conquer the sin over here, more would manifest over there.
I beat my knees in anger and despair. I fervently prayed for help and strength. I wanted to be as perfect as I could be. This was motivated by the love and thankfulness of God's mercy on me.
I found that no matter what I did, my life was an abundances of sin. On the verge of a spiritual, emotional, and mental catastrophe, I sceamed at God through tears of anger and despair.
I fell asleep that night with a refreshed hope as I changed and rearranged my plan of attack on my sin ridden life.
In no time I stood smothered in sin and helpless. I realized that not only was I unable to accomplish substantial good works, but couldn't even conquer much sin.
As much as I told myself I just wasn't able to meet the righteous expectations I thought I needed for approval...then I was given a revelation as I read this....

ONLY WHEN ONE LIES FALLEN IN THE DUST IN COMPLETE HUMILITY CAN THEY SEE THAT THE FALLEN STATE OF MANKIND EVERYWHERE IS NOT PRIMARILY IN NEED OF AN EXAMPLE, BUT A SAVIOR.

I was granted the truth and it's freedom.
today, I am free of my self righteous view, and know that the grace of God supercedes all my shortcomings and inabilities.
The peace and joy I found in the truth has nurtured a love I never knew before.
May all glory go to God

justpassinthrough · Jun 13, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Jesus will be your Judge on the Day of Judgement.

Here are those who will receive eternal life on that Day -

eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are [b]treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:5-8

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jun 13, 2018

BillG said:

If you shared a house with 80% of those who are Christians, you would find out exactly what they believe, by the way they live their life.

JPT

justpassinthrough · Jun 13, 2018

50C1AL0N3 said:

I have labored abundantly to abolish the sinful nature made known to me through my understanding of God's righteousness.
I found that with all my might and effort I would fail miserably. As I tried to conquer the sin over here, more would manifest over there.
I beat my knees in anger and despair. I fervently prayed for help and strength. I wanted to be as perfect as I could be. This was motivated by the love and thankfulness of God's mercy on me.
I found that no matter what I did, my life was an abundances of sin. On the verge of a spiritual, emotional, and mental catastrophe, I sceamed at God through tears of anger and despair.
I fell asleep that night with a refreshed hope as I changed and rearranged my plan of attack on my sin ridden life.
In no time I stood smothered in sin and helpless. I realized that not only was I unable to accomplish substantial good works, but couldn't even conquer much sin.
As much as I told myself I just wasn't able to meet the righteous expectations I thought I needed for approval...then I was given a revelation as I read this....

ONLY WHEN ONE LIES FALLEN IN THE DUST IN COMPLETE HUMILITY CAN THEY SEE THAT THE FALLEN STATE OF MANKIND EVERYWHERE IS NOT PRIMARILY IN NEED OF AN EXAMPLE, BUT A SAVIOR.

I was granted the truth and it's freedom.
today, I am free of my self righteous view, and know that the grace of God supercedes all my shortcomings and inabilities.
The peace and joy I found in the truth has nurtured a love I never knew before.
May all glory go to God

The grace of God is the Holy Spirit, given as a gift to those who believe/obey the Gospel.

The Holy Spirit enables us to walk in dominion over sin, rather than being a slave to sin.

Have you been Baptised with the Holy Spirit?

JPT

benhur · Jun 13, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

If you are not reading it right, it applies to those who continue in the faith, and are steadfast and grounded and do not move away from the gospel.

The fact is that those believers who do not continue in the faith will not be reconciled to God. So this proves again that ES is not a true doctrine. You must continue in the faith to have ES. If you turn from God and no longer have faith, then you lose.

BillG · Jun 13, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

That being the case I hope you do.
And if you see a problem would you walk with them to get to the root of the problem.

Do you do that?
You say 80% of Christians, who are the other 20%?

VCO · Jun 13, 2018

benhur said:

John 3:16 (HCSB)
16 “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

The word BELIEVE in the language of the JEWS means much more that JUST head knowledge, and that meaning is what ENGLISH pretty much sadly LACKS. According to the JEWS, your whole heart must be involved, before, you can claim to BELIEVE. In other words, Until you TOTALLY TRUST IN JESUS FOR ALL OF YOUR SALVATION, you do not BELIEVE, according to a Messianic Jewish Believer.

I noticed, that you have no problem to use one verse to CONTRADICT another. EVERY TIME YOU THINK YOU FOUND ONE VERSE THAT CONTRADICT ANOTHER, IT IS YOU THAT MADE A MISTAKE IN INTERPRETATION. My BIBLE has NO CONTRADICTIONS IN IT AT ALL.

Using your logic, Eph. 2:8-9 says it plain enough for a 5 year old to understand:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (HCSB)
8 For you are saved by grace through faith, and this is not from yourselves; it is God’s gift—
9 not from works, so that no one can boast. { not even the work of climbing into a baptistery }

According to my understanding FAITH and BELIEVE are the same thing, but that is WITH THE JEWISH UNDERSTANDING, that one has to Trust in JESUS with their whole heart. YES, as we mature spiritually, our FAITH DEEPENS, but Less than that total Trust in JESUS, is only what most people think the English word means; and that will not save you. In fact that is the kind of faith the demons in the demoniacs at Gadera had:

Matthew 8:28-29 (HCSB)
28 When He had come to the other side, to the region of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met Him as they came out of the tombs. They were so violent that no one could pass that way.
29 Suddenly they shouted, “What do You have to do with us, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

<><.✞.><>

My turn to ask a question:

HOW COME YOUR THEOLOGY SOUNDS LIKE A MORMON MISSIONARY STANDING ON MY DOOR STEP?

benhur · Jun 13, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

the error youre making is when you assume just because they lost their church

that they lost their salvation

but those of them that were saved before the church lost its place

were saved after the church lost its place

youre ignoring the context

7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God

1 John 5:5
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

out of one side of your mouth you say you believe

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

but then you deny this when you speak of your current understanding in regards to how you view scripture

you disagree with yourself

Do you think 'church' means anything more than the congregation of people?

NoNameMcgee · Jun 13, 2018

benhur said:

when its speaking of those who worship the beast names not being written in the book of life

this is not because they are blotted out?

i have read every single verse about the book of life many times ben

but you know what

i CAN be wrong about some things

based off of all the verses i came to the conclusion all names are in there

side by side with their works

and wether or not they believe in Christ

those whos names are not found written in the book have been blotted out

Revelation 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 3:5 - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Revelation 21:27 - And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither [whatsoever] worketh abomination, or [maketh] a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 20:15 - And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:12 - And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works

Exodus 32:33 - And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

Psalms 69:28 - Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

if i look at it how you look at it

then how are the dead judged by the book if they were never in it or blotted out to begin with?

im not a liar ben
nor am i perfect

though i dont believe you have ever once proven me wrong

and i can say that with a clear heart

im open to learn

everyone here

can you explain what God has shown you about the book of life?

it is possible my understanding is wrong

and i may indeed be ignorant of many things

but i believe im right about what i said regarding the book of life

if i am in error show me please with scripture

BillG · Jun 13, 2018

Just a question on the lambs book of life and blotting out names.

If God is all knowing, then from the beginning of time or creation he knows everything.

He knew Adam and Eve would sin.
He knew David a man after his own heart would do what he did and as a result should have been put to death but was not.

So is it possible that the names blotted out were blotted out at the beginning of time?

After all he knows who are his and Jesus promised he would not lose anyone given to him by our Father.

If that's the case then our names cannot be blotted out.

If so then maybe that's why we have tipex

NoNameMcgee · Jun 13, 2018

BillG said:

i believe when it says "whos names are not found in" as well as "whos names are not written in" are both whos names are blotted out

i actually studied this for awhile before i came to this conclusion about 9 months ago

im open for correction if it is legit

NoNameMcgee · Jun 13, 2018

justpassinthrough said:

i cant wait

i desire to be with my savior greatly and finally be delivered from this fallen world

i love being used by Him while there is still much work to be done

but nothing puts a smile on my face like finally being able to hug Him and thank Him in person

BillG · Jun 13, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Ah but when were they blotted out?

At the beginning of time but revealed at the end of time?
After all if God knows everything then from the beginning of time we are not even in the book at the end of time.

So blotted out at the beginning.

If that is not the case where is the security of salvation, what is the security of salvation?

TruthTalk · Jun 13, 2018

BillG said:

Hi BillG, OSAS is a strawman argument from people who say you can lose your salvation.
Eternal Security is a doctrine of the Church. There is a whole misguided ideology behind OSAS.

Its a poor mans attempt to say you have no eternal security and you must work for you salvation.
They are the self-righteous ones who work to save themselves.

God bless,

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