Revelation 3:5

[Ralph-]

The scripture you quoted do not say anything about the loss of the Holy Spirit, or the loss of salvation.

I thought you might have been following my posts.

Chapter 3 explains what the inheritance is. Chapter 4 explains the loss of the inheritance for going back to being a slave of the old covenant. A slave who has no inheritance along with the sons of the New Covenant.

They had heard the gospel, and believed it, and were saved. But they were being persuaded by the Judaizers that they needed to keep the law. Paul wrote to correct them.

Yes, I am aware of this. That's why this is a matter of losing salvation, not a matter of never having it.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God's promise to Abraham and his descendants is what can not be revoked. He is not saying once a person has the gift of the Holy Spirit it can not be revoked. Read it.

Ralph,
The sad truth is that you still do not have a TOTAL GRASP of the meaning of salvation, or what was accomplished by Christ.

We are not even discussing national Israel but the salvation of individuals. You were given the Scriptures which show that both eternal life and the Holy Spirit are GIFTS of God's grace. Once God gives a gift, He does not revoke it. And because it is eternal life, the gift is also eternal. How much simpler can it get?

In addition to that God PREDESTINES every child of God to be glorified (Rom 8:29,30). Do you understand what that means?

 

[shrume]

I thought you might have been following my posts.

Alas for your ego, but no, I am not following you. The system lets people know when someone responds to a post.

Chapter 3 explains what the inheritance is. Chapter 4 explains the loss of the inheritance for going back to being a slave of the old covenant. A slave who has no inheritance along with the sons of the New Covenant.

Yes, I am aware of this. That's why this is a matter of losing salvation, not a matter of never having it.

Paul never once stated that the Galatians were in danger of losing salvation or of losing the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[dcontroversal]

Nobody argues with this. We all know it is his power through which salvation happens start to finish. What we are saying is you have his power to do that as long as you have faith. Stop having faith in Christ and his work of salvation ends.

Now you can argue that the person who stops believing never 'really' believed to begin with and so was never saved to begin with. I can respect that argument, though I do not agree with it in all cases. Or you can insist that the former believer is going to be saved when Jesus comes back and will enter into the kingdom with us who believe. But that's such a ridiculous claim that it's hardly worth discussing. But I know this is where the church has come to in these last days--unbelievers inhabiting the kingdom of God. We have fallen a long way down. A loooooong way. The end is near.



But remember, you are among those who ignore the context of Hebrews 10 to make the passage so it's not talking about saved people. Did you forget?

No....you don't believe it..if

Nobody argues with this. We all know it is his power through which salvation happens start to finish. What we are saying is you have his power to do that as long as you have faith. Stop having faith in Christ and his work of salvation ends.

Now you can argue that the person who stops believing never 'really' believed to begin with and so was never saved to begin with. I can respect that argument, though I do not agree with it in all cases. Or you can insist that the former believer is going to be saved when Jesus comes back and will enter into the kingdom with us who believe. But that's such a ridiculous claim that it's hardly worth discussing. But I know this is where the church has come to in these last days--unbelievers inhabiting the kingdom of God. We have fallen a long way down. A loooooong way. The end is near.



But remember, you are among those who ignore the context of Hebrews 10 to make the passage so it's not talking about saved people. Did you forget?

No....you don't believe it..the bolded above proves you do not believe what you wrote right before it....end of story....make no mistake..the Jesus you peddle is not the Jesus of the bible regardless of how many times you say he is!

 

[adhidw]

Revelation 3:1-6


3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiledtheir garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.



I pay attention in :

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiledtheir garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

means : in the Sardis church there were “a few” = humans which were still alive that time , which were assured “ will not be blotted their names from the book of life “ = since that time if the book of life being opened ,surely their names being found there = since that time always saved.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Revelation 3:1-6


5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

"He that overcomes" shall be clothed in white raiment and the one that overcomes Jesus will not blot out that persons name from the book of Life. For the individual who remains soiled and does not overcome, reverse the promise.

4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

means : in the Sardis church there were “a few” = humans which were still alive that time , which were assured “ will not be blotted their names from the book of life “ = since that time if the book of life being opened ,surely their names being found there = since that time always saved.

"A few" in the context are those who have not soiled their garments, i.e. their dead in sin, living according to the sinful nature.

However, those who did soil their garments, Jesus says if they will repent and overcome, then they will also walk with Him in white (Fine linen, bright and clean represents the righteous acts of the saints).

In all the letters to the churches there are promises to the individual who repents and overcomes. But for those who do not repent and overcome, reverse the promises and apply the consequences.

 

[adhidw]

"He that overcomes" shall be clothed in white raiment and the one that overcomes Jesus will not blot out that persons name from the book of Life. For the individual who remains soiled and does not overcome, reverse the promise.



"A few" in the context are those who have not soiled their garments, i.e. their dead in sin, living according to the sinful nature.

However, those who did soil their garments, Jesus says if they will repent and overcome, then they will also walk with Him in white (Fine linen, bright and clean represents the righteous acts of the saints).

In all the letters to the churches there are promises to the individual who repents and overcomes. But for those who do not repent and overcome, reverse the promises and apply the consequences.

I don’t bother about these:

"A few" in the context are those who have not soiled their garments, i.e. their dead in sin, living according to the sinful nature.

However, those who did soil their garments, Jesus says if they will repent and overcome, then they will also walk with Him in white (Fine linen, bright and clean represents the righteous acts of the saints).


The reality that time in Sardis there were : A, B, C, D. among others Where God said special for them that : A, B, C, D have not defiledtheir garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

More than that, He assured that “their names will not be blotted from the book of life “.

Now the question: is it possible one day after that day suddenly their names no longer there in the book of life? , if not then so it means they surely saved when ever it be.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I don’t bother about these:

"A few" in the context are those who have not soiled their garments, i.e. their dead in sin, living according to the sinful nature.

However, those who did soil their garments, Jesus says if they will repent and overcome, then they will also walk with Him in white (Fine linen, bright and clean represents the righteous acts of the saints).


The reality that time in Sardis there were : A, B, C, D. among others Where God said special for them that : A, B, C, D have not defiledtheir garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

More than that, He assured that “their names will not be blotted from the book of life “.

Yes, Jesus promised them, but only those who repent and overcome will walk with Him wearing white. That's why I said, for those who don't repent and overcome, reverse the promise which would be those who repent and overcome, I will not blot out there names from the book of life. For those who do not repent or overcome, I will blot out their names from the book of life. Do that with all of the promises and consequences written in the letters. Here some more examples:

Ephesus:
"If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

"To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God."

If they do not repent and overcome, then their lampstand would be removed from its place and they would not have the right to eat from the tree of life.

Pergammum:
"Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth."

"To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.

If they don't repent, then the Lord will come and will fight against them with the sword of His mouth, which is in reference to when He returns to the earth and kills all of those gathered at Armageddon with the double-edged sword, which is the word of God. Likewise, if they do not overcome, then the Lord will not give them any of the hidden manna, nor will He give a white stone with a new name written on.

Sardis:
"The one who is victorious will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out the name of that person from the book of life, but will acknowledge that name before my Father and his angels. "

The one who is not victorious, will not be dressed in white and I will blot out the name of that person from the book of life and I will not acknowledge that persons name before my Father and His angels.

Understand?

 

[Ralph-]

We are not even discussing national Israel but the salvation of individuals.

Correct. That is why you can not use Romans 11:29 to somehow prove once a person has the gift of eternal life they can not lost it. Romans 11 is about God not revoking his promise to Abraham even though the Israelites have rejected and killed the Messiah. Paul uses himself to prove that:

"1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. "-Romans 11:1

"28From the standpoint of the gospel they (Israel) are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Paul is proof of that). "-Romans 11:28-29

You were given the Scriptures which show that both eternal life and the Holy Spirit are GIFTS of God's grace.

I know of no person who even contests this.

Once God gives a gift, He does not revoke it.

If you mean that the way Paul means that in context in Romans 11, then, of course, that is true. But if you unrightly divide it away from the context and say this means once a person has the Holy Spirit/salvation they can never lose it then it is false.

And because it is eternal life, the gift is also eternal.

The gift is eternal. Whether or not you are going to keep believing and stay in the life that is eternal is what we do not know.

How much simpler can it get?

It's simple if you just stick with what the scriptures say and not adopt a theology that makes the word of God not really mean what it says. So many once saved arguments depend on various passages not really meaning what they say.

In addition to that God PREDESTINES every child of God to be glorified (Rom 8:29,30). Do you understand what that means?

I understand that if I keep believing to the very end I will be glorified. That is the predetermined outcome for the person who has been justified in Christ. The outcome is predictable and predetermined. Whether or not you or I will continue to believe to the very end and achieve that predetermined outcome is what we do not know.

Christian Predestination is like being a tadpole. It is predetermined that the tadpole will grow up into a frog, not into a camel, not into a dog. Whether or not he keeps living long enough to achieve that predetermined outcome is what the tadpole does not know. All he knows is he must stay alive between now and then to achieve that which he knows (by faith) has been predetermined for him to become.

 

[Ralph-]

No....you don't believe it..if


No....you don't believe it..the bolded above proves you do not believe what you wrote right before it....end of story....make no mistake..the Jesus you peddle is not the Jesus of the bible regardless of how many times you say he is!

Salvation is possible because of God's power in salvation. But that hardly means you don't have to secure that power through faith by your believing.

Even the faith to secure God's power in salvation is not of you, but that hardly means you do not then have to place your trust in Christ in response to the gift of faith. We know who has received that faith, not rejected it, and who are trusting God through that faith by if they are living for Jesus. Generally speaking, if they are still living in their old lives then we know they do not trust God for salvation.

We must continue to trust God through the gift of the power of faith to be saved when Jesus comes back. We know we are doing that and are ready to meet him at his coming by if we are living for him.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We are not even discussing national Israel but the salvation of individuals. You were given the Scriptures which show that both eternal life and the Holy Spirit are GIFTS of God's grace. Once God gives a gift, He does not revoke it. And because it is eternal life, the gift is also eternal. How much simpler can it get?

Non sequiturs. Just because someone gives you something that will last forever doesn't mean that you can't lose it or have it stolen through carelessness or neglect.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If you mean that the way Paul means that in context in Romans 11, then, of course, that is true. But if you unrightly divide it away from the context and say this means once a person has the Holy Spirit/salvation they can never lose it then it is false.

Irenaeus wrote about heretics in his day who thought that the spiritual gift they had been given could never be taken away from them.

Animal men, again, are instructed in animal things; such men, namely, as are established by their works, and by a mere faith, while they have not perfect knowledge. We of the Church, they say, are these persons. Wherefore also they maintain that good works are necessary to us, for that otherwise it is impossible we should be saved. But as to themselves, they hold that they shall be entirely and undoubtedly saved, not by means of conduct, but because they are spiritual by nature. For, just as it is impossible that material substance should partake of salvation (since, indeed, they maintain that it is incapable of receiving it), so again it is impossible that spiritual substance (by which they mean themselves) should ever come under the power of corruption, whatever the sort of actions in which they indulged. For even as gold, when submersed in filth, loses not on that account its beauty, but retains its own native qualities, the filth having no power to injure the gold, so they affirm that they cannot in any measure suffer hurt, or lose their spiritual substance, whatever the material actions [i.e., conduct] in which they may be involved... they run us [of the Church] down (who from the fear of God guard against sinning even in thought or word) as utterly contemptible and ignorant persons, while they highly exalt themselves, and claim to be perfect, and the elect seed. For they declare that we simply receive grace for use [in sanctification], wherefore also it will again be taken away from us; but that they themselves have grace as their own special possession, which has descended from above by means of an unspeakable and indescribable conjunction; and on this account more will be given them.

​

 

[NayborBear]

Always, it seems, so many people confuse, or would like to conjoin, Salvation, with Inheritance of the Kingdom of God. And base discussions, and arguments on it.

Where as one may boast, or say, you have not as "much" inheritance as I have? Therefore, you cannot have Salvation. Such a "Pharasetic" point of view!

Pursuaded is believing, is accepting, is forgiven, is baptized, is saved! Period!

Such is not inheritance! Much inherited? Little inherited? None inherited? Still, you are saved! Until the Great White Throne Judgement, anyway.

-smh

 

[Ahwatukee]

Salvation is possible because of God's power in salvation. But that hardly means you don't have to secure that power through faith by your believing.

Even the faith to secure God's power in salvation is not of you, but that hardly means you do not then have to place your trust in Christ in response to the gift of faith. We know who has received that faith, not rejected it, and who are trusting God through that faith by if they are living for Jesus. Generally speaking, if they are still living in their old lives then we know they do not trust God for salvation.

We must continue to trust God through the gift of the power of faith to be saved when Jesus comes back. We know we are doing that and are ready to meet him at his coming by if we are living for him.

Morning! Regarding this issue and since you are in Romans, I would add what Paul also said:

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.


Paul was saying, don't boast against the natural branches, because they were broken off because of not having faith. And we as believers also stand by faith. Therefore, if we stop having faith, then we can be broken off as well. James 5:19 is pretty straight forward in regarding our salvation being dependent on continuing in faith:

"My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins."

Notice that James refers to them as "My brothers" demonstrating that they are believers. Then he mentions any of them who should wandering away from the truth and that while in that state they are accumulating sin and are on their way to death. But, if another believer warns them of their wandered state and they repent, then the multitude of sins that they will have been accumulating in that state are covered over and they are saved from death.

As the scripture states, "We are saved by grace through faith." But that faith is not a one time confession, but is required from beginning to end. Otherwise, what would be the purpose of all the warnings to believers throughout God's word if OSAS. If a person goes back into living according to the sinful nature, partying, sexual immorality, drugs, etc., then they have wandered from faith, which links them to God's grace. Paul makes this issue of continual faith pretty clear in the following scripture:

"Once you were alienated from God and were hostile in your minds because of your evil deeds. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy, unblemished, and blameless in His presence— if indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope of the gospel you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

The conclusion is that, salvation is obtained and maintained by remaining in faith from beginning to end.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He will most definitely finish what he starts - if we let him. IMO monergism, which is what you are espousing, is an untenable biblical concept.

If we let him, Who is this persons faith in, God, Who promised to finish what he started, Or himself?

I think he showed his cards here, His faith is in himself continuing to allow God to do whatever it is he thinks God must do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

A son may remain a son, but a disobedient son can be disinherited. And that is what salvation is - an inheritance.

No, Salvation is being saved by Gods wrath, The inheritance comes with it. Many things as part of the inheritance we are promised. We may lose reward. but we will never lose salvation

If we can lose it. Salvation is a wage not a gift.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Inheritance is a gift because GOD's sons are adopted. They had no right to an inheritance.

if they have no right to it, and can't earn it, they can never lose it either. if they can lose it, they must earn it.

We are talking about salvation though, the gift of eternal life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are trying to say a man can divorce his wife for unfaithfulness. That God can divorce us as He divorced Israel, for unfaithfulness.
But there are a few things to consider here.

1. We are told this law was not good for us but He only gave it to us because of the hardness of our hearts.
2. Actually...I'll not bring up the rest yet.

But God did not divorce Israel. There is always a remnant promised. She is still his first love.

But thats another subject

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Irenaeus wrote about heretics in his day who thought that the spiritual gift they had been given could never be taken away from them.

​

​

can we stick to the bible. And not words of men?

 

[SpoonJuly]

I find it so depressing that so many of you have placed your eternal security in your own hands.
If your eternal security is not totally in the hands of Jesus, NO EXCEPTIONS, than you have no security.