Baptism and holy spirit

[shrume]

Since we are on the subject of tongues with that of being associated with that of the Holy Spirit then I feel like we need to address the issue of being slain in the spirit which it seems to always follow those who hold fast to speaking in tongues. This truly is a sight to see and yet these poor people do not understand the whole implication of this action that is happening to them.

If it matters, I do not believe in getting “slain in the spirit”. There’s no record or example of it in the Bible. God wants all things done decently and in order.

 

[Noose]

It's not that their gifts were fake. The problem is they never grew up in Christ to a mature knowing of Christ and fell away, their lawless lives being the evidence of that. No amount of service for God through a gift can make up for the lawlessness of one's personal life.

There's no such thing as growing in Christ, if a person believes in the gospel, they are saved and they become greater than John the baptist in the kingdom of God. The thief crucified on right hand of Jesus didn't have time to 'grow in Christ' yet he was in paradise that night.
The group in Matt 7 prophesied/healed/drove out demons/spoke in tongues e.t.c all in the 'name' of Christ or so they thought, yet they were rejected, why??!!
The issue is not about growing in Christ, a person that has reached the level of driving out demons, speaking in tongues and healing in the name of Christ has really grown in Christ- they also thought so.

Truly truly i tell you, I know where the problem is:

Matt 24:4Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘Iam the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them.

Rev 13:11 Then I saw a second beast, coming out of the earth. It had two horns like a lamb, but it spoke like a dragon. 12It exercised all the authority of the first beast on its behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. 13And it performed great signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to the earth in full view of the people. 14Because of the signs it was given power to perform on behalf of the first beast, it deceived the inhabitants of the earth. It ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

Let me expound Rev 13; do not wait for a man to call fire from heaven, the signs they are talking about are the normal signs that we see- the speaking in tongues/the healings/the raising of dead/the driving out of demons, all fake. Take not the second beast out of the earth has two horns like that of a lamb - meaning that all these things happen in the church setting so that many are deceived.

"Let no man deceive you"
Jesus Christ, 33AD

 

[Noose]

Do a little research. While admittedly this is a controversial subject, I do not believe Mark 16:9-20 are original.

Also, we are not only left with tongues. There are the other 8 manifestations as well.

So it boils down to parts of the bible that are not original??!!
That part is the most original part because we saw all those things manifest in disciples; They picked serpents without being harmed/they healed the sick at will/ they raised the dead/ they spoke in tongues.
If Mark 16 is not original, the entire Acts of the Apostles can't be original because we see in Acts and other gospels all that was promised the disciples manifest.

Are we really left with all the 8 manifestations? if anyone thinks they have the gift of healing, let them go to a hospital and practice his gift, they will fail terribly- and this is how is know even the tongues that we speak today is all fake.

 

[Noose]

It's odd to me to hear someone say they know for a fact that the Holy Spirit never manifests anymore. Or that He never manifests in certain ways anymore. It's quite bizarre when you think about it.

It's not bizarre because i know what i speak of. It's not like the Holy spirit doesn't manifest anymore, He does but His mandate is to comfort us in this time of suffering (meaning that we have to go through suffering to the point of death without looking out for signs or even healing) And giving us understanding at this time of confusion where the antichrist comes with all manner of antics and tricks.

healing does happen but not the public broadcast kind of healing, i have myself been healed severally not because someone laid hands on me, it just happened and i believe it is Lords doing.
I don't think raising the dead happens in this last days because it is God's harvest time. God can not harvest only for give back life to someone; these things happened in the 1st century so that people could believe, but now:

Rev 14:12This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Patience and endurance is what is asked for from God's people- means suffering and death is here with us, not signs and wonders or speaking in tongues.

 

[Noose]

Yes. And not to mention the fact that if you definitively state all tongues spoken today are 100% counterfeit, you can't know that unless you've visited every gathering on earth!

I authoritatively say that coz i know what i'm saying. You don't have to visit every gathering, you only have to read the bible and ask for understanding from the Holy spirit.
This is what Daniel saw about the end times (today):

Dan 8: 12 And on account of rebellion, the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did.

Dan 12:7And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been shattered, all these things will be completed.”

Take note, the antichrist defeats God's people- he causes deceit to prosper and flings the truth to the ground and he also shutters the powers of God's holy people. Do not take this for granted.

Jesus said we are the light of world, but also take note that before the end, the light of the world will be defeated completely; the moon will be blood/ the sun will be darkened and the stars will fall; did you think Jesus was talking about the real sun or stars or moon? Jesus was talking about Christians, they will be thoroughly defeated by the antichrist- not that the tongues will cease, nope, the tongues will even increase but all will be in deception (fake signs and wonders).

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

There's no such thing as growing in Christ,

That's not what the apostle said. He said if these things are increasing in you, you're doing well. …7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And he talked about growing your roots down into Christ. And he talked about not being able to discuss the spirit of a matter with those who were yet carnal still.

All of these connote a "growing" in Christ. They connote an increasing of Him and a decreasing of us.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I authoritatively say that coz i know what i'm saying. You don't have to visit every gathering, you only have to read the bible and ask for understanding from the Holy spirit.
This is what Daniel saw about the end times (today):

Dan 8: 12 And on account of rebellion, the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did.

Dan 12:7And the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by Him who lives forever, saying, “It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been shattered, all these things will be completed.”

Take note, the antichrist defeats God's people- he causes deceit to prosper and flings the truth to the ground and he also shutters the powers of God's holy people. Do not take this for granted.

Jesus said we are the light of world, but also take note that before the end, the light of the world will be defeated completely; the moon will be blood/ the sun will be darkened and the stars will fall; did you think Jesus was talking about the real sun or stars or moon? Jesus was talking about Christians, they will be thoroughly defeated by the antichrist- not that the tongues will cease, nope, the tongues will even increase but all will be in deception (fake signs and wonders).

I can give advice but I certainly can't make someone consider it, but I think you are doing something that borders on dangerous in across the board stating that no tongues anywhere can be from the Holy Spirit, because when the unpardonable sin is spoken of, it has to do with attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to satan.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And yet, we ALSO know there is an extreme amount of nonsense and men like Hinn and others attributing their ridiculous antics to some awesome work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

But this doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is no longer working ANYWHERE.

 

[yellowcanary]

But this doesn't mean the Holy Spirit is no longer working ANYWHERE.

Tongues are not a prerequisite for God's Spirit to be working in any of us. And unless the hearers hear in their own native language, tongues are meaningless clanging symbols. I've yet to hear of even one occasion in today's world of tongue speakers where the listener heard in their own language. At pentecost, all heard in their own native languages ... and many different earthly languages they were. This should be a cause of concern for many today. But it isn't.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Tongues are not a prerequisite for God's Spirit to be working in any of us.

I never said they were. In fact, most of the recent conversation in here has been an argument over tongues not even being necessary for praying in the Spirit. They aren't necessary for praying in the spirit but some - and one man in particular - insists that they are, because of his private interpretation.

As to the rest of your post, I think what you are saying is that tongues are actual earthly languages which, if you had read the thread, you would have seen that I agree with that.

As to you not having heard of a single instance of tongues (as in an earthly language), and so therefore, because you've never personally heard of one, that is proof that God doesn't ever manifest in this way through His Spirit in anyone, that's not good proof at all. That's just you going by what you have not seen.

 

[shrume]

Truly truly i tell you, I know where the problem is:

It's not bizarre because i know what i speak of.

I authoritatively say that coz i know what i'm saying.

I don't think so...

 

[Noose]

That's not what the apostle said. He said if these things are increasing in you, you're doing well. …7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities and continue to grow in them, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And he talked about growing your roots down into Christ. And he talked about not being able to discuss the spirit of a matter with those who were yet carnal still.

All of these connote a "growing" in Christ. They connote an increasing of Him and a decreasing of us.

I completely agree with you, people grow in Christ but in what context did i refute:
I asked, what did these people (Matt 7) do and why will Jesus reject them. Take a look once again.

Matt 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

someone suggested that these are people who have not grown in Christ- do you also think that these people have not grown in Christ?
In that context i refuted the idea that only people who grow in Christ will make it to heaven and even gave an example of the thief on the right hand of Jesus- He didn't have time to grow in Christ but that night he was in paradise.

Again, who are these people? they seem to have 'grown in Christ' in those gifts (healing/driving out demons/miracles) but they were still rejected. Why?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I completely agree with you, people grow in Christ but in what context did i refute:
I asked, what did these people (Matt 7) do and why will Jesus reject them. Take a look once again.

Matt 7:21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

someone suggested that these are people who have not grown in Christ- do you also think that these people have not grown in Christ?
In that context i refuted the idea that only people who grow in Christ will make it to heaven and even gave an example of the thief on the right hand of Jesus- He didn't have time to grow in Christ but that night he was in paradise.

Again, who are these people? they seem to have 'grown in Christ' in those gifts (healing/driving out demons/miracles) but they were still rejected. Why?

They are rejected, not because they have not grown, but because He says He never knew them.

 

[shrume]

Tongues are not a prerequisite for God's Spirit to be working in any of us.

That's true.

And unless the hearers hear in their own native language, tongues are meaningless clanging symbols.

On the day of Pentecost, the hearers DID hear in their own language, but that is not the norm, and it fact it rarely happens. The hearers generally do not hear in their own language. That's why Paul says that if someone speaks in tongues in public, he must interpret.

I've yet to hear of even one occasion in today's world of tongue speakers where the listener heard in their own language.

So because YOU'VE never heard of it, it's never happened? While I have not personally seen it, I have heard of occasions where someone in the group understood what the person speaking in tongues was saying.

At pentecost, all heard in their own native languages ... and many different earthly languages they were.

That's right. God underscored the significance of Pentecost by giving the apostles the languages spoken by other people present. It almost never happens, which is why Paul says in 1 Cor 14 that if a person speaks in tongues out loud, he must interpret, so the church can be edified.

This should be a cause of concern for many today. But it isn't.

The fact that people almost always do not understand when a person speaks in tongues unless he interprets is no cause for concern.

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

16) Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

 

[Noose]

I can give advice but I certainly can't make someone consider it, but I think you are doing something that borders on dangerous in across the board stating that no tongues anywhere can be from the Holy Spirit, because when the unpardonable sin is spoken of, it has to do with attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to satan.

The opposite is just true- don't you think you are in danger of attributing satan's work to the Holy spirit?
If people speak incomprehensible words, how on Earth would you say that it is from God? and if anyone says that they have the spirit of God and that He witnesses to them about the tongues being spoken being true - how can we confirm that if they haven't been given the ability to interprate the spoken tongues?
I repeat, the kingdom of God doesn't come with observable signs and so even if someone is to pray in tongues, it is done in private because it doesn't edify the body of Christ in any way.

We are also told to test every spirit- i have done my part, i want to ask you one question:
If someone came to you speaking incomprehensible words and they told you they are speaking of the spirit of God, would accept it or dismiss them? what test are you going to do?

 

[shrume]

The opposite is just true- don't you think you are in danger of attributing satan's work to the Holy spirit?
If people speak incomprehensible words, how on Earth would you say that it is from God?

Why wouldn't it be?
1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

and if anyone says that they have the spirit of God and that He witnesses to them about the tongues being spoken being true - how can we confirm that if they haven't been given the ability to interprate the spoken tongues?

Every Christian has received the gift of the Holy Spirit, and can operate the manifestations of that gift. And Paul gives specific instruction that when a person speaks in tongues aloud in the church, he must interpret so the church can be edified.

I repeat, the kingdom of God doesn't come with observable signs and so even if someone is to pray in tongues, it is done in private because it doesn't edify the body of Christ in any way.

Paul didn't get that memo...

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15) What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

27) If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

We are also told to test every spirit- i have done my part

You've done something, all right..

i want to ask you one question:
If someone came to you speaking incomprehensible words and they told you they are speaking of the spirit of God, would accept it or dismiss them?

Let me guess... You would categorically dismiss them as Satan-possessed.

what test are you going to do?

If they were speaking of their own free will, there is no reason to doubt them.

 

[Noose]

They are rejected, not because they have not grown, but because He says He never knew them.

How come He never knew them yet they performed so many miracles in His (Christ's) name? they healed the sick/the drove out demons and performed miracles in the name of Jesus.
Hope you get my point of view. They did miracles with the power of antichrist who deceives many and also occupies the temple of God as if he was God. The reason i said Godly signs and wonders ceased the moment the antichrist stepped on the scene. It is also the reason i know the speaking of tongues that we witness today is all fake.

 

[shrume]

How come He never knew them yet they performed so many miracles in His (Christ's) name? they healed the sick/the drove out demons and performed miracles in the name of Jesus.
Hope you get my point of view. They did miracles with the power of antichrist who deceives many and also occupies the temple of God as if he was God. The reason i said Godly signs and wonders ceased the moment the antichrist stepped on the scene.

When did the antichrist step on the scene? It's true that there are many antichrists in this world, but did you get special revelation showing you who THE antichrist is? Do you believe were living in the trib now? Are we living in the book of Revelation now?

I think it's still future.

It is also the reason i know the speaking of tongues that we witness today is all fake.

You think you know it, but you are wrong.

 

[CS1]

Nope face to face is how we see ourselves through the NT revelation. The OT was shadows but the NT make them plain.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

absalutely not it is not how we see ourselves. Nothing in the context of the chapter even comes close to that idea, . You are elitzing scripture. and you have not scripture ref but one verse to make that assertion .