Not By Works

[benhur]

j
My favorite verse on the subject is John 10 AMPC
29 My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater and mightier than all [else]; and no one is able to snatch [them] out of the Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are One.

Who were the Nicolaitans?

 

[50C1AL0N3]

Joshua <----CHOOSE you this day WHOM you will serve.
GOD to DAVID <---I offer you three choices, CHOOSE one <--for numbering the people

TWO of many......Choice indicates the will to chose and your very last two examples = will and the right to chose....wow man...slow down and think about what you actually say....

We have free will to choose only what is on the list of choices. Our eternal destination isn't one of them.

 

[dcontroversal]

We have free will to choose only what is on the list of choices. Our eternal destination isn't one of them.

Except for the fact that MANY are CALLED but few CHOSEN.............one is only rejected when they reject....so...........

 

[benhur]

what does the bible say about those who stop trusting god and turn to unbelievers?

1 John 2: 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Was Hymenaeus and Alexander some of those that were never with us?

 

[benhur]

Their end is worse than before they turned to Christ.

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
(2Pe 2:20 KJV)

This is what I have been saying, thank you for your words. I have always believed that OSAS and ES are false and dangerous doctrines.

 

[benhur]

well think if you had the truth of the word, and the hope of salvation in your grasp. and you let it go because your faith was not their..

and then you have an eternity to think about it, Yeah, that would be worse.

Thank you EG.

 

[benhur]

to me it would be impossible. A dog returns to his vomit, well. because he is a dog (unsaved)

Well, for several examples given in the bible it was not impossible, it happened. They were saved, then turned away and Jesus turned away from them and in fact tells us that he hated them. ES not truth.

 

[ljs]

My point is that it is God who justifies, not me. Christ finished the work of God and all of salvations redemptive purpose. It is finished.......not....it is finished if this or that. My God is not up there biting his nails in hopes I will do the right things so the slaughter of his son won't be in vain. My salvation is not a test, nor is it at any time in my control.
Our faith and any and everything else is supplied by God to assure his make it home. The whole idea that we have anything to add to gods grace as a requirement of salvation is self centered and possibly self righteous. It diminishes faith in Christ, and can only accomplish what I could before the grace of God was bestowed upon us......nothing.

Truth right there !!
I think its because alot of believers doing good works , look at other believers do things they dont approve of or who may have fewer or not seen good works , and they just cant wrap their heads around the fact that this other person could possibly be saved like they are
Reminds me of the pharisees

 

[BillG]

Thats only 1 thing the bible says about believers turning into unbelievers. Look up who the Nicolaitans were and why Jesus hated them.

They were followers of Nicolas, who it is believed to be one of the 7 deacons chosen to help relieve some of the burdens that were crushing the apostles. Stephen, the first martyr was one of these men. So believe me or not, these 7 were saved men in the KOG, yet one of them became so apostate that he and his followers were hated of Jesus. I would also say that if they were loved by Jesus at one time, and later hated by Jesus, it proves you can lose your eternal life.

IOW ES is a false doctrine.

Acts 6:5-6
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, 6 whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them.

The biblical term "proselyte" is an anglicization of the Koine Greek term προσήλυτος (proselytos), as used in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) for "stranger", i.e. a "newcomer to Israel";[1] a "sojourner in the land",[2] and in the Greek New Testament[3] for a first century convert to Judaism, generally from Ancient Greek religion. It is a translation of the Biblical Hebrew phrase גר תושב (ger toshav).[4] (Wikipedia)

2:6 Even if the Ephesian church did not love as it should have (v. 4), at least the Lord could positively say, you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans. The Nicolaitans were a heretical group that troubled the churches at Ephesus and Pergamos (v. 15). Apparently their teaching and practice were immoral, perhaps even idolatrous (v. 14). Some church fathers connected this sect with Nicolas, one of the seven elected leaders in the Jerusalem church (Bible study notes)

1 John 2:19-20
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

2:19 When the false teachers went out from among the believers, they revealed that they did not belong to the Christian community; they were never true believers. they … us: In the opening verses of this book, John made a distinction between we and you (1:1, 3). We, the apostles, were the eyewitnesses of Christ, you were the readers. That same distinction is probably maintained here (see also v. 20). Thus when John says these false teachers were not of us, he means they did not agree with the teaching of the apostles. These antichrists had departed from the apostolic churches, and their attitudes and actions were not of the apostolic persuasion. If they had been in harmony with the apostles, they would have remained in fellowship with them (1:1–3).
Bible study notes.

Given the above I reckon Nicolas was never a true believer to begin with.
Maybe a conversation to Judaism but not Christianity.

But also possibly out to gain (my assumption) just like Simon the scorcrer.

It's interesting that only he is referred to as proselyte.
I'm not aware of the other 6 being mentioned in revelations.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[benhur]

benhur has not a single trace of humility, his arrogance and counterfeit gospel is beyond belief.

I am similar to decon, your friend. We share similar traits. We are just on the opposite sides of ET.

 

[benhur]

Acts 6:5-6
5 And the saying pleased the whole multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch, 6 whom they set before the apostles; and when they had prayed, they laid hands on them.

The biblical term "proselyte" is an anglicization of the Koine Greek term προσήλυτος (proselytos), as used in the Septuagint (Greek Old Testament) for "stranger", i.e. a "newcomer to Israel";[1] a "sojourner in the land",[2] and in the Greek New Testament[3] for a first century convert to Judaism, generally from Ancient Greek religion. It is a translation of the Biblical Hebrew phrase גר תושב (ger toshav).[4] (Wikipedia)

2:6 Even if the Ephesian church did not love as it should have (v. 4), at least the Lord could positively say, you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans. The Nicolaitans were a heretical group that troubled the churches at Ephesus and Pergamos (v. 15). Apparently their teaching and practice were immoral, perhaps even idolatrous (v. 14). Some church fathers connected this sect with Nicolas, one of the seven elected leaders in the Jerusalem church (Bible study notes)

1 John 2:19-20
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.

2:19 When the false teachers went out from among the believers, they revealed that they did not belong to the Christian community; they were never true believers. they … us: In the opening verses of this book, John made a distinction between we and you (1:1, 3). We, the apostles, were the eyewitnesses of Christ, you were the readers. That same distinction is probably maintained here (see also v. 20). Thus when John says these false teachers were not of us, he means they did not agree with the teaching of the apostles. These antichrists had departed from the apostolic churches, and their attitudes and actions were not of the apostolic persuasion. If they had been in harmony with the apostles, they would have remained in fellowship with them (1:1–3).
Bible study notes.

Given the above I reckon Nicolas was never a true believer to begin with.
Maybe a conversation to Judaism but not Christianity.

But also possibly out to gain (my assumption) just like Simon the scorcrer.

It's interesting that only he is referred to as proselyte.
I'm not aware of the other 6 being mentioned in revelations.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

A proselyte to me is one who was a member due to being proselyted. He was probably not a Jew, and was possibly a proselyte from another country.

All I know is that those 7 chosen to assist the apostles, were no ordinary men. They were, at the time, the best men of the age. Ones that had a great testimony of Jesus, or they would not have been chosen to serve in this important calling.

These men had to have been saved, or they would not have been chosen to assist the apostles like this.

 

[benhur]

oh boy, Here we have the cake.

So we focus on the law and commands, and we will be ok, But we focus on the cross, and we are in danger.

What world did you grow up in man?

1 Corinthians 2:2

For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.

The cross is the most important aspect of our lives, remove the cross from our focus, and we will fall to all kinds of sin and self righteousness, Our focus will turn to self. and away from God.

If this is what you got from what I said, this is the problem. I didn't even come close to saying, we should focus on the law and commandments and we will be OK. Read it again and then tell me what I really said. Be truthful.

 

[benhur]

so far what ive seen from you

is men save men through works <- baptism

and this "salvation" is reliant on a constant proof made up of works

otherwise it runs out of salvation fuel...

how long would works have to be absent to prove this man saved through being dipped in water and helping people across the street is no longer saved...


does this man need to be dipped again?
or should he help someone else across the street?

Ask the biblical Nicolaitans, or Hymenaeus, or Alexander?

 

[benhur]

a good christian can lose their soul?
wow man, You keep digging yourself deeper

Is there any biblical stories or parables that prove that ET is a bad doctrine. Be careful and be truthful.

 

[BillG]

A proselyte to me is one who was a member due to being proselyted. He was probably not a Jew, and was possibly a proselyte from another country.

All I know is that those 7 chosen to assist the apostles, were no ordinary men. They were, at the time, the best men of the age. Ones that had a great testimony of Jesus, or they would not have been chosen to serve in this important calling.

These men had to have been saved, or they would not have been chosen to assist the apostles like this.

Did Nicolas have a great testimony?
I wasn't saying he was a Jew, but as a proselyte given the biblical term then it's possible he converted to Judaism and not Christianity, maybe in voice only.

noun

1. a person newly converted to a religious faith or sect; a convert, esp a gentile converted to Judaism

 

[benhur]

So now we have a good Christian who can lose their soul.
Does that not sound contradictory?
If they lost their soul then they are not a good Christian.
If they lost their soul then one must ask "Were they a good Christian to begin with?

In fact I raise the question "Is there such a thing as a good Christian?
In fact what constitutes "GOOD" when it comes to the perfection of the creator himself?

Is there such a thing as a bad Christian?

Now what I find very interesting is that you say is that a Christian can lose their soul of they lose their focus on the cross, then you add to that "you will keep my commandments"

So the focus is not on the cross, but keeping commandments.

Does God love us unconditionally?

I would say yes.

If that's the case then we have a problem because Jesus is saying "If you love me then you will keep my commandments"

Then being the case then Gods love is conditional on meeting and meeting ALL his commands.

Fall foul of one you fall foul of them all.

As James points out in

James 2:8-12
8 Yes indeed, it is good when you obey the royal law as found in the Scriptures: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”9 But if you favor some people over others, you are committing a sin. You are guilty of breaking the law.
10 For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws. 11 For the same God who said, “You must not commit adultery,” also said, “You must not murder.” So if you murder someone but do not commit adultery, you have still broken the law.
12 So whatever you say or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law that sets you free.

Jesus summed up the commandments in two, the sum up the 10 commandments.

So if we love God with all our heart and soul and mind do we keep the Sabbath, the 4th one?

If not then what?
After all Jesus kept the Sabbath.

I realise I have digressed a bit but the point I'm trying to make is that if we place burdens on people that says "You love me if you keep my commandments yet fall foul it's obvious you do not"

Peter fell foul, and Jesus asked him 3 times do you love me? Twice agape and third Phileo. Was Peter a good Christian or a bad one when he replied "I Phileo you 3 times?

Apparently this quote of mine is disturbing a lot of folks. I said a good Christian can lose their soul if they lose focus on the cross and if they lose focus on the life of Christ and keeping his sayings.

It is the truth, ask the Nicolaitans, and Hymeaeus and Alexander, 3 perfect examples straight out of the bible.

 

[BillG]

So not a genuine beliver.

And I still quote what Acts says,

Nicolas was the only one called a proselyte, no one else.
Why would that be?

 

[benhur]

the condition is the precious shed Blood of Jesus. Sounds like a condition to me anyways. Your choice and mine.

I chose Jesus and to Obey Jesus amen

I also choose Jesus and choose to obey Jesus, amen.

 

[benhur]

You chose Jesus?

Did you not choose Jesus?

 

[BillG]

A proselyte to me is one who was a member due to being proselyted. He was probably not a Jew, and was possibly a proselyte from another country.

All I know is that those 7 chosen to assist the apostles, were no ordinary men. They were, at the time, the best men of the age. Ones that had a great testimony of Jesus, or they would not have been chosen to serve in this important calling.

These men had to have been saved, or they would not have been chosen to assist the apostles like this.

Appearance can be deceptive.
One has to ask the question "Did they always get it right?

Acts 15:25-29
25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.Farewell.

Acts 15:29
29 You must abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality. If you do this, you will do well. Farewell.”

1 Corinthians 8:4-13
4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
9 But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10 For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11 And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12 But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13 Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.