Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[justpassinthrough]

How on Earth (and in Heaven) can you twist this passage to mean Jesus will lose some that His Father has given Him!? Jesus EXPRESSLY says He ISN'T going lose any.

Please stop taking what Jesus said out of context, and mis-applying it to mean all people.

This is exactly how false doctrine is spread throughout the body of Christ by unlearned people who love to hear what their itching ears want to hear.


11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. John 17:11-18

• While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition,
• As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

The context is referring to His 12 Apostles, and not the entire Church.


Wake up and stop promoting false doctrine.




JPT

 

[mailmandan]

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition,

As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

 

[Ralph-]

That's your biased opinion. Now for a Biblical view:

Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved"? Let me explain the reasons.

First, his heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer in the 4th soil, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

***Unlike saving faith, temporary shallow belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons "believe" mental assent that "there is one God," but they are not saved.

John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. YOU CALL THAT SAVED?

I already explained this to you in post #1,009 but as usual, the truth just went right over your head.

But this is simply YOUR biased view.

You're basically saying, since once saved always saved is true, the belief of the 2nd type of soil can not be real, therefore, once saved always saved is true. That's called circular reasoning.

I don't even use the Parable of the Sower to prove once saved always saved is not true. I use it to show that people can stop believing.

 

[Ralph-]

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none."

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

No person is ever lost because of ineptitude on the part of Jesus. Not ever.

People themselves choose to go back to the world in unbelief and reject the perfect and effectual ministry of Jesus. That's what the Galatians were doing. And Paul made it clear to them what the consequence of doing that is.

 

[garee]

Please stop taking what Jesus said out of context, and mis-applying it to mean all people.

This is exactly how false doctrine is spread throughout the body of Christ by unlearned people who love to hear what their itching ears want to hear.


11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. John 17:11-18

• While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition,
• As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

The context is referring to His 12 Apostles, and not the entire Church.


Wake up and stop promoting false doctrine.




JPT

Its referring to the entire church to include those he sends with the gospel (apostles).

The word "apostle" with no other meaning applied simply means sent one. Some try and add another meaning as a way of prompting false doctrine . Dividing the Christian from the Christian rather than rightly dividng the word

All Christian have their birth certificates in heaven, the incorruptible where rust and moths will not effect it. They will all receive their new corruptible bodies (the goal of our faith) when the bride of Christ, the church comes down to the new incorruptible heavens and earth. Some would lay up their treasures as wonderful works here, not walking by faith the unseen eternal

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:Mathew 6


They have their born again citsizenship in the new Jerusalem .on the last day dhe will come doemn prepared as his bride

 

[garee]

But this is simply YOUR biased view.

You're basically saying, since once saved always saved is true, the belief of the 2nd type of soil can not be real, therefore, once saved always saved is true. That's called circular reasoning.

I don't even use the Parable of the Sower to prove once saved always saved is not true. I use it to show that people can stop believing.

Circular reasoning is the kind of reasoning one would expect coming from a book that is sealed having all the laws required to believe its author.

The good ground is the word of God you could say watered with the doctrines of God that fall like rain or dew . (the water of the word)Take away the good ground a person sinks as in quick sand.

If God has begun the work of salivation in us he will finish it. He creates OSAS

 

[garee]

He's discussing the integrity of the gospel. Not people leaving who were once believers. His point is that they won't add to the gospel. We see many Scriptures where Paul is vigilant about protecting the gospel from those who want to pervert it. And Paul's defense of the gospel is against those who want to add to the work of Christ.

Yes those who leave were never of the us that Christ defines, as us.

 

[OneFaith]

He's discussing the integrity of the gospel. Not people leaving who were once believers. His point is that they won't add to the gospel. We see many Scriptures where Paul is vigilant about protecting the gospel from those who want to pervert it. And Paul's defense of the gospel is against those who want to add to the work of Christ.

He was discussing that those who leave belief (faith) never truly believed in the first place, and we're never genuinely saved- that is not true. The ones who left the faith (doctrine of Christ) were part of His church (body of believers who had obeyed the gospel). He thinks OSAS is true, and it is not. One can lose their salvation, was my point. It shows in this verse here... "But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins." 'No longer' means there once genuinely did. (Sinning willfully does not mean sin at all, it means to use Christ's blood as a license to sin on purpose without goal or effort to stop).

 

[justpassinthrough]

Its referring to the entire church to include those he sends with the gospel (apostles).

The word "apostle" with no other meaning applied simply means sent one. Some try and add another meaning as a way of prompting false doctrine . Dividing the Christian from the Christian rather than rightly dividng the word

All Christian have their birth certificates in heaven, the incorruptible where rust and moths will not effect it. They will all receive their new corruptible bodies (the goal of our faith) when the bride of Christ, the church comes down to the new incorruptible heavens and earth. Some would lay up their treasures as wonderful works here, not walking by faith the unseen eternal

But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:Mathew 6


They have their born again citsizenship in the new Jerusalem .on the last day dhe will come doemn prepared as his bride

The context refers to His disciples, His 12 Apostles.


11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. John 17:11-18

• While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition,
• As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.

The context is referring to His 12 Apostles, and not the entire Church.


Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.



None is lost refers to the other 11.

The son of perdition refers to Judas Iscariot.



No amount of twisting will change this truth.





JPT

 

[Ralph-]

Who are you calling false prophets and a scourge? People have engaged you with civility and patience. YOU think YOU can lose your salvation. FINE! YOU CAN lose YOUR salvation! But guess what? WE CANNOT lose our Salvation BECAUSE WE KNOW THE ONE WHO HOLDS IT!!

A fourth type of soil believer is the believer who will not forfeit/lose his salvation. Jesus said they are the ones "who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance "-Luke 8:15

It is weak, immature believers who have not grown to a place of intimate 'knowing' with the Lord who can fall away and lose their salvation. They never knew him in a fourth type of soil relationship. If they had grown up to that they'd be among them who "hold fast...and bear fruit with perseverance"-Luke 8:15.

Paul and John say this same thing. It is those who hold fast that which they have heard who are saved and who will be held fast in Christ.

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you"-1 Corinthians 15:2

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. "-1 John 2:24


Meanwhile, it is the immature 2nd type of soil type of believer, known by God in salvation, but who haven't grown up to a mature knowing of God themselves who can fall away and lose/forfeit their salvation........that is, if they refuse correction and persist in the sin of their unbelief. That is the crossroad the Galatians were at. Young immature believers who started out good but in whom the word is not deeply rooted in a 'knowing' relationship with God.


So I'm not suggesting that you were deceived when you became convinced the Lord was opening up your heart up to the truth of not being able to lose/forfeit salvation. You just have to understand who that applies to. It does not apply to the immature believer in whom the word is not deeply rooted. It applies to the mature believer in whom the word goes down deep and can not be uprooted. It's a mistake to tell a new, immature believer that they can never stop believing and, thus, lose/forfeit their salvation.

 

[Ralph-]

Circular reasoning is the kind of reasoning one would expect coming from a book that is sealed having all the laws required to believe its author.

I don't know what you're trying to say here.

The good ground is the word of God...

In the Parable of the Sower, the ground in all four types is the heart. The seed is the word of God sown into that heart. And depending on the condition of the soil of the heart the word either comes to fruition or it doesn't.

In the first two types of 'hearts', the word does not remain in the soil. In the first type, it doesn't even go into the ground. In the second type in goes in and even begins to grow but not firmly because of the condition of the heart.

In the third and fourth types of 'hearts', the word remains in the heart but doesn't come to fruition in one of them because it is being choked out by the worries and pleasures of this life (which is, IMO, where 95% of Christians spend the bulk of their span of years as a believer). Only in the forth type of heart does the word remain and bring forth fruit in perseverance.

If God has begun the work of salivation in us he will finish it.

...if the word continues to abide in you in believing. The work of salvation is finished for the one who continues to believe the word:

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you"-1 Corinthians 15:2

"If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father."-1 John 2:24


If you fall back in unbelief (because the condition of your soil/heart is not good for retaining the word) you will cease to abide in the Son and the Father and you will not be saved. The work of salvation is not, and can not be completed in the person who falls away in unbelief. The promise is only true for those who continue to believe.

 

[UnderGrace]

He was discussing that those who leave belief (faith) never truly believed in the first place, and we're never genuinely saved- that is not true. The ones who left the faith (doctrine of Christ) were part of His church (body of believers who had obeyed the gospel). He thinks OSAS is true, and it is not. One can lose their salvation, was my point. It shows in this verse here... "But if you sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for your sins." 'No longer' means there once genuinely did. (Sinning willfully does not mean sin at all, it means to use Christ's blood as a license to sin on purpose without goal or effort to stop).

Show me where Paul teaches that one can be unjustified?

 

[RickyZ]

In order to understand the context of these passages we must go back a verse:

2 Peter 2:19, ESV: "They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption. For whatever overcomes a person, to that he is enslaved."

First off, this is talking about false teachers that promise other people (them) freedom (to sin), but they themselves are slaves.... this means these teachers aren't saved... if they were saved that goes against Scripture that teaches believers are set free. And no longer slaves to sin.

But let's go back a little further.

If we go back to the beginning of 2 Peter 2, you see this:

1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed.

I personally don't see false prophets and false teachers as being true believers. Therefore I believe the crux of this passage is to ensure you a true believer and if you are that means you follow Christ. Because we love Him who loved us first.

That's only half of the story. Read on and you will see it also talks about those who follow the false teachers. 2 Peter has to be taken in it's entirety, not just on selected scriptures. And attempting to make 2 Peter say the opposite of what it says takes some serious Frank Gehry treatment.

 

[know1]

There are many more people who believe they are saved than know they are saved. Those who believe they can lose their salvation bring into question what it is that they have believed.

Some folks will say they believe in big foot. That's ok but they can change their mind when they figure out they are wrong. If you are saved you will know it because of the witness of the Holy Spirit with your spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The lawyers Sadducees and Pharisees all thought they had the truth and that Jesus was a whack job, when it was they themselves who were deceived into believing a lie when it was Jesus who had and was telling the truth.
The devil is not called a deceiver for nothing and when one is deceived they believe that they have or that they are something when they are not or when they do not have something.
Jesus said that there will be many in that day that'll come to him asking him why they're not going to heaven when they thought they were.
Which means they really believed that they were born again when they were not.
So you can say you will know if you are born again or not but I believe scripture teaches that the deception will be so strong that there will be many who believe they are when in fact they are not children of God.
I have called several into question on CC because they not only cannot receive the truth but preach and teach against it. Even hating some of the truths written in the Bible.
For example Paul says he preaches the word of faith and many on this forum hate the very teaching. It is either of God or it is not. It is either a truth of God or it is not.
If it's written in the Bible that Paul preached it then how is it of the devil? Why then, if this is the truth and they are of God, can they not see and receive this simple truth?
The reason why I ask is because Jesus said those who are of God will be able to receive truth and they that are not of God will not be able to receive it.
I also believe the scripture that talks about the wheat among the tares has to do with not only the wolves in sheep's clothing that know they're not born again but those who believe they are and yet or not.

 

[Ralph-]

...attempting to make 2 Peter say the opposite of what it says takes some serious Frank Gehry treatment.

That seems to be what once saved always saved is all about. Making passages of scripture not really mean what they say. I got called out on this years ago. They were right, that's what I was doing. I don't do it anymore.

 

[Ralph-]

Show me where Paul teaches that one can be unjustified?

The Galatians lose the justification they have in Christ by going back to the law for justification:

"9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10You observe days and months and seasons and years."

"30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

Galatians 4:9-10,30

 

[Epiales]

The Galatians lose the justification they have in Christ by going back to the law for justification:

"9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10You observe days and months and seasons and years."

"30But what does the Scripture say?
“CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,
FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN.”

Galatians 4:9-10,30

And again, you fail to highlight KNOW God and KNOWN by God... ALL the children of Israel were KNOWN by God... ALL sinners are KNOWN by God... But not ALL people are saved that are KNOWN by God, and not all people that KNOW God are saved. And don't forget to add the next scripture there either.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[Epiales]

The lawyers Sadducees and Pharisees all thought they had the truth and that Jesus was a whack job, when it was they themselves who were deceived into believing a lie when it was Jesus who had and was telling the truth.
The devil is not called a deceiver for nothing and when one is deceived they believe that they have or that they are something when they are not or when they do not have something.
Jesus said that there will be many in that day that'll come to him asking him why they're not going to heaven when they thought they were.
Which means they really believed that they were born again when they were not.
So you can say you will know if you are born again or not but I believe scripture teaches that the deception will be so strong that there will be many who believe they are when in fact they are not children of God.
I have called several into question on CC because they not only cannot receive the truth but preach and teach against it. Even hating some of the truths written in the Bible.
For example Paul says he preaches the word of faith and many on this forum hate the very teaching. It is either of God or it is not. It is either a truth of God or it is not.
If it's written in the Bible that Paul preached it then how is it of the devil? Why then, if this is the truth and they are of God, can they not see and receive this simple truth?
The reason why I ask is because Jesus said those who are of God will be able to receive truth and they that are not of God will not be able to receive it.
I also believe the scripture that talks about the wheat among the tares has to do with not only the wolves in sheep's clothing that know they're not born again but those who believe they are and yet or not.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Many will think they are saved, but they never truly accepted Christ because Christ says He never knew them. Simple. Either Christ knows you... SAVED... or He doesn't... NOT SAVED...

 

[Epiales]

A fourth type of soil believer is the believer who will not forfeit/lose his salvation. Jesus said they are the ones "who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance "-Luke 8:15

It is weak, immature believers who have not grown to a place of intimate 'knowing' with the Lord who can fall away and lose their salvation. They never knew him in a fourth type of soil relationship. If they had grown up to that they'd be among them who "hold fast...and bear fruit with perseverance"-Luke 8:15.

Paul and John say this same thing. It is those who hold fast that which they have heard who are saved and who will be held fast in Christ.

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you"-1 Corinthians 15:2

"24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. "-1 John 2:24


Meanwhile, it is the immature 2nd type of soil type of believer, known by God in salvation, but who haven't grown up to a mature knowing of God themselves who can fall away and lose/forfeit their salvation........that is, if they refuse correction and persist in the sin of their unbelief. That is the crossroad the Galatians were at. Young immature believers who started out good but in whom the word is not deeply rooted in a 'knowing' relationship with God.


So I'm not suggesting that you were deceived when you became convinced the Lord was opening up your heart up to the truth of not being able to lose/forfeit salvation. You just have to understand who that applies to. It does not apply to the immature believer in whom the word is not deeply rooted. It applies to the mature believer in whom the word goes down deep and can not be uprooted. It's a mistake to tell a new, immature believer that they can never stop believing and, thus, lose/forfeit their salvation.

Soil this and soil that.

Wayside.. This is the dirt that is not the actual PATH and it's not the actual FIELD. It's between the path and the field.

Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

When seed falls into the heart of someone's who's not understanding it or one who does not want it; they are not seeking Him; they never produce faith.

Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

An example of this is in luke 9. Remember when the people came to Jesus and fed them? Then come evening they come back? What are they "seeking'? It sure wasn't Jesus. They wanted another free meal. Perfect example of the first heart.

Let's read Luke's version:

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Lest they be saved? Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Stony soil.. They had fields that had to be separated from other fields, sot hey placed rocks there and dirt was put on top. So when the sower starts sowing liberally, some of this seed will land there. A plant will grow roots but then hit the rock, therefore PUSHING the plant upwards, making it look very nice and healthy on the outside, but the sun soon comes and it withers and dies.

Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

Received it really quick and and had no root inside himself unto faith. These people believed for awhile ( devil believes too) .. There is a huge difference in believing and having faith. These people never allow the belief they have to produce faith.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

They have made made an OUTWARD decision, but never an INWARD commitment. They think God is a Genie in a book and when it doesn't go their way; what belief they had soon withered away. These people never went as far as to turn their belief into actual faith.

Thorns soil... Simple. They brought no fruit to maturity.

Simply put, that if you say they were saved but wasn't fully mature, then that includes everyone of us, as no one can tell me they have fully matured can you? So the understanding is that their understanding and belief never came to a full maturity of faith in Christ. This is why the CHOKED. They had no faith of our deliverer.

Now let's just say... by CHANCE... that these three types of hearts actually got saved, and lost that salvation (which never even mentions salvation ONCE in those scriptures)... then that means everyone is doomed to hell, because who has full trust God in EVERYTHING that's in the Word of God? Who has not let the affairs of the world get in the way of their walk with Christ? If you claim that you haven't and that you still don't, you are a liar. You go to children's ball games? You go to work parties? You watch television? Do you use the internet SOLELY for the Gospel? Do you even need that Iphone? You could of saved that 1200 dollars and fed the hungry... What stopped you? Your greed. I could think of a BILLION things that everyone gets involved in concerning things of this world, and how it takes them away from the Gospel in some aspect or area. If one is NOT DOING LIKE PAUL, then you have let something of the world choke your walk with the Lord.

So if you believe this parable are for SAVED people, then you are ALL going to hell; including me.

Thus, why the first three are not saved based on the certain key words highlighted in scripture. They never produced the faith that SAVES. They all had knowledge of God, and even joyfully believed that God was the right path to take, but that belief never turned into ACTION that provided a true, foundation FAITH in Christ.

You can believe in aliens and then someone prove they don't exits. Then you can say, well I guess I was wrong.. Aliens didn't exist... The fact is, is you never fully believed in them to begin with if you can just UNBELIEVE. That is not true faith.

This is true faith in something: OXYGEN! You can tell ANYONE IN THIS CHAT THAT OXYGEN DOES NOT EXIST... but nobody will believe you. Why? Because they KNOW it exists and no matter how many people in the world tell them that is DOES NOT exist, they KNOW better.

That's the FAITH that saves. I believe, accept, know, and have fully put my trust in Christ Jesus, for my LIFE, and for my SPIRITUAL well-being, and this IS FAITH THAT SAVES...

 

[Epiales]

No one said angels were always saved.

Angels didn't have the blood of Christ now did they? lol! Some of the examples people come up with. They really have to stretch things eh?