Woman can't teach in the congregation

[Noose]

Since you're so certain that Paul is addressing "authority" in 1 Timothy, please find the Greek word for "authority" (exousia) in the Greek text. Good luck.

I don't know Greek and i don't believe people have to learn Greek or Hebrew to understand anything. I restrict myself on the spiritual understanding rather than linguistics.
There's a connection in marriage between a man and a woman- Eve sinned first but didn't realize she was naked until Adam also partook of the sin. Immediately Adam took the fruit, their eyes were opened- why?

whatever word is used in Genesis or wherever, it means authority or dominion. It is this connection between one subordinate and another of authority that imputes sin to the one with authority.
I believe Paul is talking authority with respect to husbands and wives within a congregation.

 

[trofimus]

With the exception of verse 2, the pronouns in that passage are neuter, not male.

I have probably a problem understanding what you mean.

For example verse 3:

μὴ πάροινον, μὴ πλήκτην, ἀλλὰ ἐπιεικῆ, ἄμαχον, ἀφιλάργυρον,

These words are masculine.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Have you seen the video of Benny Hinn's wife talking about the holy ghost enema? Now she's definitely someone who shouldn't be speaking in church.

Oh...I found it. It was the very end of the video that has almost finally persuaded me that it is true women should not preach or teach...she may have singlehandedly convinced me...

https://youtu.be/G-uwJSV_8pQ?t=88

 

[Miri]

I love threads like this, they have me in hysterics! 🤣

 

[Deade]

And yet there are entire congregations that do not allow women preachers. Let each be persuaded in their own mind.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I love threads like this, they have me in hysterics! 🤣

I know what you mean. But then you look out at the whole stadium and see so many people and are horrified.
Wherever the dead body is, there the vultures gather.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Sorry miri, thought you were referring to something else.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I love threads like this, they have me in hysterics! 🤣

Let's hope you don't also claim that this is *holy laughter*.

So instead of rolling on the floor laughing, let's see you take the relevant Scriptures and show us what they mean.

 

[Dino246]

I don't know Greek and i don't believe people have to learn Greek or Hebrew to understand anything. I restrict myself on the spiritual understanding rather than linguistics.
There's a connection in marriage between a man and a woman- Eve sinned first but didn't realize she was naked until Adam also partook of the sin. Immediately Adam took the fruit, their eyes were opened- why?

whatever word is used in Genesis or wherever, it means authority or dominion. It is this connection between one subordinate and another of authority that imputes sin to the one with authority.
I believe Paul is talking authority with respect to husbands and wives within a congregation.

While there is nothing inherently wrong with going by the English translation in most cases, in this particular case, some deeper study is needed. The Greek word authentein is used only in 1 Timothy 2, and the meaning of it is uncertain at best. It certainly is not the same word that Paul uses elsewhere, so to assume (and even argue) that it means the same thing is naive.

Scripture does not say that Eve sinned first. It says that she was deceived. The first sin is accounted to Adam... in several places.

 

[Dino246]

I have probably a problem understanding what you mean.

For example verse 3:

μὴ πάροινον, μὴ πλήκτην, ἀλλὰ ἐπιεικῆ, ἄμαχον, ἀφιλάργυρον,

These words are masculine.

I'll refer you to Angela's study on this passage, first presented in the "Women Pasters (sic)" thread from about 16 months ago.

 

[shrume]

Oh...I found it. It was the very end of the video that has almost finally persuaded me that it is true women should not preach or teach...she may have singlehandedly convinced me...

https://youtu.be/G-uwJSV_8pQ?t=88

I could show you some truly wacko sermons by men. Would that convince you men are not to preach?

 

[trofimus]

I'll refer you to Angela's study on this passage, first presented in the "Women Pasters (sic)" thread from about 16 months ago.

If you want to check the Greek:

http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/3.htm

Every word is listed together with gender etc. I tried to figure out what you mean that everything except of verse 2 is neuter, but... I cannot see it.

Maybe I will search that old forum you recommend, later.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I could show you some truly wacko sermons by men. Would that convince you men are not to preach?

I was joking, kind of along the lines of...thou almost persuadest me Mrs. Hinn....

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

While there is nothing inherently wrong with going by the English translation in most cases, in this particular case, some deeper study is needed. The Greek word authentein is used only in 1 Timothy 2, and the meaning of it is uncertain at best. It certainly is not the same word that Paul uses elsewhere, so to assume (and even argue) that it means the same thing is naive.

The meaning seems indicate acting autocratically

37.21 αὐθεντέω: to control in a domineering manner—‘to control, to domineer.’ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω … αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός ‘I do not allow women … to dominate men’ 1 Tm 2:12. ‘To control in a domineering manner’ is often expressed idiomatically, for example, ‘to shout orders at,’ ‘to act like a chief toward,’ or ‘to bark at.’

Johannes P. Louw and Eugene Albert Nida, vol. 1, Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Based on Semantic Domains, electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. (New York: United Bible Societies, 1996), 473.

αὐθεντέω, -ῶ; (a bibl. and eccl. word; fr. αὐθέντης contr. fr. αὐτοέντης, and this fr. αὐτός and ἔντεα arms [al. ἕντης, cf. Hesych. συνέντης· συνεργός; cf. Lobeck, Technol. p. 121]; hence a. acc. to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself. b. in later Grk. writ. one who does a thing himself, the author (τῆς πράξεως, Polyb. 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, i. q. αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn. p. 120 [also as above; cf. W. § 2, 1 c.]); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: τινός, 1 Tim. 2:12.*

Joseph Henry Thayer, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (New York: Harper & Brothers., 1889), 84.

3. authenteo (αὐθεντέω, 831), from autos, “self,” and a lost noun hentes, probably signifying working (Eng., “authentic”), “to exercise authority on one’s own account, to domineer over,” is used in 1 Tim. 2:12, KJV, “to usurp authority,” RV, “to have dominion.” In the earlier usage of the word it signified one who with his own hand killed either others or himself. Later it came to denote one who acts on his own “authority”; hence, “to exercise authority, dominion.”

W. E. Vine, Merrill F. Unger and William White, Jr., vol. 2, Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Nashville, TN: T. Nelson, 1996), 46.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I could show you some truly wacko sermons by men. Would that convince you men are not to preach?

And actually, the part where her husband (Hinn) says he's very drunk and starts falling all over the place and his boys have to keep catching him, and they're all laughing - could also almost convince me that no men should ever preach either!

 

[Dino246]

The meaning seems indicate acting autocratically

Agreed. I've also heard that it could mean "domineer" or even "claim to be the originator of" (the latter is from a recording I heard many years ago and I can't locate the source). Both ideas make good sense of the context... which the traditional patriarchal interpretation does not.

What the passage doesn't say is "Women (plural general) must not lead, teach, or be in authority over men". Paul was more than sufficiently adept at language that were such his intent, he would have written it more clearly and directly.

 

[trofimus]

What the passage doesn't say is "Women (plural general) must not lead, teach, or be in authority over men". Paul was more than sufficiently adept at language that were such his intent, he would have written it more clearly and directly.

The problem with Paul is that he is sometimes not clear enough in his writings, as also Peter said.

So we should probably not operate with "he would say it clearer if he wanted it to mean this". Paul´s style is strange, a little. "A woman" can mean "all women".

 

[Waggles]

Do some research on the word "head" that has been translated from the Greek. Warning deep research may take you several months.

Head : G2776 κεφαλή kephalē
Probably from the primary word κάπτω kaptō (in the sense of seizing); the head (as the part most readily taken hold of),
literally or figuratively: - head.

 

[Waggles]

Research the word "submit" in Greek and the historical cultural context, you may find your belief structure shaken.

Submit : G5293 ὑποτάσσω hupotassō
From G5259 and G5021; to subordinate; reflexively to obey: - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto,
(be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto.

 

[Waggles]

You seem to be drawing on 1 Timothy 2:12, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet". The word "authority" is not in the Greek, so your premise is flawed.

Not according to my Bible - authority (to domineer) is in the original Greek

(ABP+) And a wifeG1135 G1161 [4to teachG1321 2notG3756 1I commit 3to their care],G2010 norG3761 to domineerG831 a husband,G435 butG235 to beG1510.1 G1722 at rest.G2271

(ABP-G+) γυναικι δεG1135 G1161 διδασκεινG1321 ουκG3756 επιτρεπωG2010 ουδεG3761 αυθεντεινG831 ανδροςG435 αλλ΄G235 ειναιG1510.1 ενG1722 ησυχιαG2271