Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[Epiales]

Is a person who believes, the no longer believes, a believer?


Are they saved when they believe, or is there more that is required to be saved?



JPT

These people never believed in the finished work of Christ, so therefore, they were not saved. They were like, oh this sounds good, let's check it out.. Oh, really? Christ did all this? Christ took away the Old Covenant? Oh no man, we don't like this. We're going back to the animal sacrifice and laws. They never believed. Simple.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Nothing there about losing that which one cannot gain to begin with .

• For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JPT

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I decide I wanna be Catholic... I go to a Catholic Church... I hear the message... but I didn't want to believe it. I wanted to believe what the Baptist believe. Does that mean I was ever a Catholic? Nope...

It's simple. You can say you want to go to church as an unbeliever. You can even get involved in the study groups and hear about the Word and Jesus Christ, and then say... nope, I'm going back to my old self. This isn't for me. People do it all the time. And these are the people that will fall away in the end times. Those that have truly not received Christ in their hearts. They are self-professing. Just like the one that went to church but never did anything with it. I bet if someone would of asked him if he were a Christian, he might of even said he was.

Unrealistic context. There is no evidence that the writer of Hebrews was addressing unbelievers. Mere speculation.

 

[garee]

The book of Hebrews was written to those who High Priest and Apostle is Jesus Christ.

• holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,

Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed wasfaithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward, 6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. Hebrews 3:1-6

• Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

JPT

Yes we hold fast to Christ. He alone is the confidence of His chaste virgin bride the church . He gives her His faith to believe, if he has begun the good work of salvation(redemption form sin) that he works in us... He will finish it to the end. Not until the next time we sin. No one can snatch us from his hand(will) as many as He gave the Son will come. They are the ones he will never cast out. He always finishes that which he starts.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

W

And again, it's not talking about children of God, but about those Jews that wanted to go back to Old Testament sacrifice and Levitical laws, when they were told all throughout Hebrews that those were all just a foreshadow of a new and better covenant. The whole purpose of the book really. So yeah, if they have heard the teachings of Christ, and they wanted to go and keep cleansing themselves and sanctifying themselves, then hey, they trample the blood of Christ. It's really simple.

Be Blessed In Christ

EPIALES

we see xamples of this today,

1. Muslim - a muslim professes christ, but his heart is truely in islam, he eventually returnes to where his true faith lies, islam.

2. A catholic - profess they repented and found. True grace, but heart lies in his church, he will try to add catholic tadition to his grace, or return to catholicism, because thats where his heart is.

In both examples, their profession of faith was a false faith, which never led to a changed heart, only a pseudo fath which never endures.

The Jews of Hebrews had the same issue, they professed faith, but there real faith was in the law. Which is why, in all three cases, if hey fall away (back to where they came) they can not be renewed, they had h change and walked away, nothing will convinn to try again.

 

[Epiales]

• are, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

JPT

If there's someone with an evil heart? Hmmm. Simple: UNSAVED....
Unbelief? That's simple to... UNSAVED.. Can't have unbelief AND belief? Can you
Departing from living God? This is simple too.

Many hear the word of God and they depart from Him because they don't want Him. Read Romans 1

So yeah, exhort one another, while it's today... because you know, sinner?(not referring to you) You are not promised tomorrow, lest you keep sinning and die in your sins. But we, the children of God have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence... what's that confidence? ETERNAL SECURITY.

So many wanna try and rob me of it on a daily basis. I won't let them. my confidence is on the finished work of Christ and Him alone thank you Jesus.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Again, either way, you said they did not believe prophecy. Therefore they didn't believe He was Christ the Messiah, therefore; they are 'unbelieving'. The point is, they are not saved. It's a silly thing to discuss, so I"ll move on

No, I didn't say that.

You have to move on because you have an indefensible position. There is no evidence for what you are claiming. btw, this type of speculative projection is what the false grace teachers do all of the time. Their doctrines fall apart without it.

 

[justpassinthrough]

These people never believed in the finished work of Christ, so therefore, they were not saved.

Do you just make things up as you go along.

Just read what Jesus so plainly said.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time oftemptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


The condition for salvation is to believe.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved


Jesus said believe and be saved.


Now, if there are more conditions, to being saved, then please list them here with the supporting scripture to back up what you are teaching us.



JPT

 

[Epiales]

Do you just make things up as you go along.

Just read what Jesus so plainly said.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time oftemptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


The condition for salvation is to believe.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved


Jesus said believe and be saved.


Now, if there are more conditions, to being saved, then please list them here with the supporting scripture to back up what you are teaching us.



JPT

Do you read? It says LEST they should be saved... AGAIN.. "not saved" SMH

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

These people never believed in the finished work of Christ, so therefore, they were not saved. They were like, oh this sounds good, let's check it out.. Oh, really? Christ did all this? Christ took away the Old Covenant? Oh no man, we don't like this. We're going back to the animal sacrifice and laws. They never believed. Simple.

The bible says that all a person has to do to be saved is to be baptized in the name of Jesus (acknowledge him as lord), and believe in the heart that GOD raised him from the dead. Once that is done a person is in covenant relationship with GOD. Nothing of this silly "You have to believe the right way or you're not saved" stuff.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Unrealistic context. There is no evidence that the writer of Hebrews was addressing unbelievers. Mere speculation.

Its mere speculation to think everyone he adresse was believers, we do not even do that our churches, as we give the gospel all our services, and invite people to join our family, yet we teach the same word written to the people in that day.

 

[Epiales]

No, I didn't say that.

Then I apologize if you did not say that. Could a been someone else

 

[garee]

• For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JPT

Again its a warning not to deny Him in unbelief (no faith) . He cannot deny Himself, if he has paid the full wage.

Has he made payment in full to satisfy the just demands of the Father as the better thing that accompanies salvation? or must he be re-crucified over and over every time a person denies Him in unbelief (no faith)

2 Timothy 2:12-14 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Yes we hold fast to Christ. He alone is the confidence of His chaste virgin bride the church . He gives her His faith to believe, if he has begun the good work of salvation(redemption form sin) that he works in us... He will finish it to the end. Not until the next time we sin. No one can snatch us from his hand(will) as many as He gave the Son will come. They are the ones he will never cast out. He always finishes that which he starts.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Yes if you have the confidence steadfast to the end, then yes.


Did you miss that?

• we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


The confidence mentioned here is the substance of our hope, mentioned in Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance (confidence)...


We must have faith to the end, in order to be partakers of Christ in the end.


Those who depart from the faith in Christ Jesus have departed from Him.




JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Again its a warning not to deny Him in unbelief (no faith) . He cannot deny Himself, if he has paid the full wage.

The warning is to deny Him, in which we depart from Him in unbelief while being persecuted.


This is how unbelieving Jews would try to turn believing Jews back to Judaism, which rejects Jesus Christ as Messiah and Lord, claiming He is a false prophet.



JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Do you read? It says LEST they should be saved... AGAIN.. "not saved" SMH

That’s referring to those by the wayside who never believed.

• Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

These in this group were not saved, because they did not believe.

However, these that we are discussing did in fact believe.

• who believe for a while and in time oftemptation fall away.

These believed, but later no longer believed, and they fell away.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time oftemptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


The condition for salvation is to believe.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved


Jesus said believe and be saved.


Now, if there are more conditions, to being saved, then please list them here with the supporting scripture to back up what you are teaching us.



JPT

 

[garee]

Yes if you have the confidence steadfast to the end, then yes.


Did you miss that?

• we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14


The confidence mentioned here is the substance of our hope, mentioned in Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance (confidence)...


We must have faith to the end, in order to be partakers of Christ in the end.


Those who depart from the faith in Christ Jesus have departed from Him.




JPT

Again, Christ in us is our hope of glory.He alone is our confidence, if he has begun the good work in us to both will and do His good pleasure, he will finish it . He does not start a project and not finish it .That's us

Who or what are you trusting to finish it? Purgatory.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:Philippians 1:6

 

[Epiales]

That’s referring to those by the wayside who never believed.

• Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

These in this group were not saved, because they did not believe.

However, these that we are discussing did in fact believe.

• who believe for a while and in time oftemptation fall away.

These believed, but later no longer believed, and they fell away.


12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time oftemptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


The condition for salvation is to believe.

• lest they should believe and be saved.

Believe = Saved


Jesus said believe and be saved.


Now, if there are more conditions, to being saved, then please list them here with the supporting scripture to back up what you are teaching us.



JPT

Maybe I misquoted someone LOL... So many talking here. There ARE NO OTHER conditions to believe. I think we're on the same page

 

[justpassinthrough]

Again, Christ in us is our hope of glory.He alone is our confidence, if he has begun the good work in us to both will and do His good pleasure, he will finish it . He does not start a project and not finish it .That's us

Who or what are you trusting to finish it? Purgatory.

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:Philippians 1:6

Again, it is those who have confidence, which is the substance of our faith, steadfast to the end, that will receive the salvation of our soul.


Are you saying a person can depart from the faith and still be saved.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
1 Timothy 4:1



JPT

 

[garee]

The warning is to deny Him, in which we depart from Him in unbelief while being persecuted.


This is how unbelieving Jews would try to turn believing Jews back to Judaism, which rejects Jesus Christ as Messiah and Lord, claiming He is a false prophet.



JPT

It has more to do with every time we sin we are found guilty of the whole eternal wage . Fleeing persecution could be one of them.

Again can he deny himself even though we do deny Him?