Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[PS]

That would mean:
The moment we believe we ARE saved. Our faith overcomes the world.
The only scenario in my mind that works and keeps Scripture in agreement is they were never saved to begin with.

Or they have gone astray.

 

[Cee]

Or they have gone astray.

You obviously don't want to discuss Scriptures that disagree with your POV. And you're ignoring several points I've made. So, I'll bow out of this conversation with you.

 

[PS]

You obviously don't want to discuss Scriptures that disagree with your POV. And you're ignoring several points I've made. So, I'll bow out of this conversation with you.

The reason OSAS is a doctrine to be avoided is that it gives people a false sense of security, fuelled by false teachers who lead the Lord's people the wrong way and cause them to wander away into the mountains and hills." Jer 50:6

 

[Nehemiah6]

The reason OSAS is a doctrine to be avoided is that it gives people a false sense of security...

That statement reveals that you do not really understand Gospel truth. Take some time to properly study the matter.

 

[PS]

That statement reveals that you do not really understand Gospel truth. Take some time to properly study the matter.

I left CARM about 15 years ago because I was fed-up to the back teeth with all this. In the intervening years my worst fears have been confirmed. I can only suggest you heed the warnings of the apostles, and stop accusing the early Christians of not being saved. Many died for the sake of the Gospel, and your false cult has the impudence to accuse them of not believing. The Lord will not love those who accuse His children of not believing in him.

 

[Nehemiah6]

...stop accusing the early Christians of not being saved.

What makes you think that I said anything about early Christians not being saved.

Many died for the sake of the Gospel, and your false cult has the impudence to accuse them of not believing.

What false cult are you talking about? Now you are the one making a false accusation.

 

[PS]

What makes you think that I said anything about early Christians not being saved.

What false cult are you talking about? Now you are the one making a false accusation.

I'm talking about the doctrine according to OSAS.

 

[mailmandan]

These "beloved" people had given their hearts to the Lord and were earnestly seeking to grow in the faith. Peter warned them against the unlearned false teachers who were heading towards their own destruction. Proof if proof were needed that believing Christian teachers can have a false understanding that leads themselves and others to perdition. We are only secure if we keep looking to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who is the way the truth and the life. Beware the false teachers on the internet. The apostle Peter continues:

(16) As also in all his (Paul's) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
(17) Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
(18) But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
(2Pe 3:16-18 KJV)

It would pay people to read the whole chapter with a humble and seeking heart and ask themselves why would Peter be warning them against false teachers if their salvation is secure.

I have encountered numerous false teachers on the internet. Just because Peter is warning believers about false teachers doesn't mean that the salvation of believers is not secure. False teachers can still cause believers to get side tracked, which can still cause damage. To be "led away" in 2 Peter 3:17 has the same meaning as with Barnabas being "carried away" with the dissimulation of Peter and his associates in Galatians 2:13. Nothing is mentioned there either about anyone losing their salvation. The words "lost or lose salvation" are nowhere found in the Bible.

As the Pulpit Commentary points out - Beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness; rather, as in the Revised Version, lest, being carried away... ye fall. It is interesting to notice that the word rendered "led or carried away" is used by St. Paul, in Galatians 2:13, of St. Barnabas, who, along with St. Peter himself, was then "carried away" with the dissimulation of the Judaizers. The word rendered "wicked," rather "lawless," is used elsewhere in the New Testament only in chapter 2 Peter 2:7. The word for "steadfastness" (στηριγμός) occurs only here.

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[mailmandan]

We are eternally saved providing we keep looking to Jesus for our salvation. Keep on the narrow path that leads to life. Only a few find it.

Only a few find it because only few are trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Saving faith in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

 

[PS]

The words "lost or lose salvation" are nowhere found in the Bible.

As the Pulpit Commentary points out - Beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness; rather, as in the Revised Version, lest, being carried away... ye fall. It is interesting to notice that the word rendered "led or carried away" is used by St. Paul, in Galatians 2:13, of St. Barnabas, who, along with St. Peter himself, was then "carried away" with the dissimulation of the Judaizers. The word rendered "wicked," rather "lawless," is used elsewhere in the New Testament only in chapter 2 Peter 2:7. The word for "steadfastness" (στηριγμός) occurs only here.

Proverbs 24:16 - For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

Thank you for confirming people can be led away from the truth. The apostles concern for their spiritual welfare indicates the seriousness of the resulting consequences regarding their salvation.

 

[PS]

Only a few find it because only few are trusting exclusively in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Saving faith in Christ continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

And if people who profess themselves to be Christians, believe Jesus was only a man, as many do, what then?

(Walking the dog, back soon.)

 

[mailmandan]

Thank you for confirming people can be led away from the truth. The apostles concern for their spiritual welfare indicates the seriousness of the resulting consequences regarding their salvation.

Believers can temporarily stumble, but that does not mean it's all over for them and they lost their salvation. I'm still looking for the specific words, "lost salvation" in the Bible, but cannot find them. Why are you so obsessed with this doctrine? Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was beat over the head with the NOSAS doctrine and the Priest at the RCC where I attended really seemed to enjoy keeping it's members in fear and bondage to IN-security! I guess that misery loves company.

 

[mailmandan]

And if people who profess themselves to be Christians, believe Jesus was only a man, as many do, what then?

(Walking the dog, back soon.)

Not everyone who professes to be a Christian truly is a Christian. There are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

 

[garee]

I'm talking about the doctrine according to OSAS.

If others are offering O.S.A.S. as in real redemption.... the thing that accompanies salvation and not a kick start placing a person in the Garden of Eden before man violated a commandment of God and you refuse to buy it .How long are you saved for from the time you were first once saved if it is not always?

How would you draw it out in capitol letters . You can fill in the blanks O.S.__. __.

And what is it you are being saved from .Believing O.S.A.S.?

 

[garee]

PS offered.....And if people who profess themselves to be Christians, believe Jesus was only a man, as many do, what then?

I would suggest they believe the scriptures which informs us He is not a man as us but an eternal Spirit like no other.

God who has no beginning (supernatural )cannot die.

 

[mailmandan]

JESUS IS GOD. John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[Ralph-]

Believers can temporarily stumble, but that does not mean it's all over for them and they lost their salvation. I'm still looking for the specific words, "lost salvation" in the Bible, but cannot find them.

If you don't conveniently redefine what the inheritance is you can see that Paul told the Galatians that for them to go back to the law and away from Christ is to go back to being slaves and that the slave does NOT receive the inheritance along with the sons. This is so plainly taught in the Bible that it shows how profound the deceit is in the church concerning once saved always saved.

Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I was beat over the head with the NOSAS doctrine and the Priest at the RCC where I attended really seemed to enjoy keeping it's members in fear and bondage to IN-security!

You might as well be telling us what Martians taught you. Who cares what non-Christian denom's are doing? I sure don't.

 

[Ralph-]

There are genuine believers and there are make believers.

And there are weak believers. Believers who have received the gospel and in whom the word starts to grow but is not deeply rooted. They are the ones that can fall away. Like the Galatians who were known by God but who did not know God in a mature, lasting, unmovable 'knowing' relationship yet.

 

[mailmandan]

If you don't conveniently redefine what the inheritance is you can see that Paul told the Galatians that for them to go back to the law and away from Christ is to go back to being slaves and that the slave does NOT receive the inheritance along with the sons. This is so plainly taught in the Bible that it shows how profound the deceit is in the church concerning once saved always saved.

It just shows your confusion and hostility towards the OSAS doctrine. Are you talking about Galatians 5:4? The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet?

Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

You might as well be telling us what Martians taught you. Who cares what non-Christian denom's are doing? I sure don't.

It's very interesting that the RCC strongly opposes OSAS. hmm..

 

[justpassinthrough]

Not exactly I was referring to that there is "no such thing" as the "circumstance" you clearly wanted no name to "jump on",because while John 3:16 and others similar to it speak of "believing" there is a difference between "claiming to believe" in Jesus and "sincerely believing" in Jesus to be saved and receive the Holy spirit as even Jesus himself said concerning judgment day "many will say unto me Lord Lord"(I'm sure you know the scripture).
Allow me to "clarify what I mean" many are known as "believing" especially today yet their "heart's" do not "know" Jesus many "go to church" or "use Jesus's name" in a variety of ways typically for "self promotion" or to "look good" but particularly just "like what they hear" about Jesus.
This is often why "sincere believers" and "claimed believers" get thrown into the same boat because the "claimed believers" believe Jesus will "understand" them sinning willfully and will be "forgiven" and not face hell or the lake of fire only because they "believe" what they "like to hear" and thus "reject" Jesus because they "accept" him in "portion" not in "whole" and unfortunately give a bad reputation to "sincere believers" because they themselves are in "unbelief" and thereby "confusing" others of "unbelief".
It's "tough" to know "one's heart" but even so it's possible to discern between one of "unbelief" and "actual belief" there is no "switching back and forth" between "unbelief" and "belief" you either believe in Jesus and accept him "entirely" or you don't believe in him and reject him "entirely" there is no "accepting him in part or portion".

I don’t know what all this has to do with the scripture that teaches us those who believe are saved.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


These who believe for a while, are indeed saved, because they believe, but only for a while, because under persecution they depart from Him, and return to the unbelief they once had, before they believed.


If you don’t think these who believed for a while were saved when the first believed, then please explain what more a person needs to do, than believe.



JPT