Oh goody another OSAS thread!

[PennEd]

The writer makes it crystal clear by the words he uses to us.

The problem you have, is you trying to make the word of God fit your wine tasting experience, rather than rightly dividing and examining all the adjectives that describe the point the author is making.

The meaning of tasted is not the meaning you have assigned it.

The we add “enlightened”, and “become partakers” to the word “tasted”, and we have a clear understanding that these are people, who have repented and received the Holy Spirit, and have become enlightened having a clear understanding, because then have partaken of the Holy Spirit, then as the context so plainly reveals, they have departed from the living God.

The very reason and purpose for the book of Hebrews was to reveal Jesus as the Lord God to the Jews, who were under persecution from unbelieving Jews to turn them back to Judaism.


The Context -

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14

• lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit. Hebrews 6:4



JPT

No. I fully understand what YOU are saying. I just completely disagree with it. Those people were NEVER born again children of God. You know who were/are? These people:
Hebrews 6:
A Better Estimate
9 But, beloved, we are CONFIDENT of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany SALVATION, though we speak in this manner. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and [d]labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the FULL ASSURANCE of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become [e]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is impossible that Paul is saying we can have no works of obedience and still be saved. That contradicts all the other plain passages of scripture that say that person will not inherit the kingdom. Dead faith can not save. The person in the passage is saved, so we know he's not talking about having dead faith but being saved anyway.

The context of the passage is one's labor in planting and watering the field of God and building the building of God. That is what you can have no successful work concerning and you will still be saved.

No on said they had no works now did they?

It would help if you stopped trying to read into what people say and try to actually understand them

The bible says peopl can lose rewards, it never says they can lose salvation.

You question why paul said these people were still saved, as a man who escapes a burning building with his life, but lost everything he had.

 

[PS]

I am utterly confused by your post here. You seem to be saying that born again Children of God have eternal security, but then go on to say that it isn't really secure. Is Jesus incapable of keeping us saved? Is not your offspring YOUR children by BIRTH and DNA? Even if they were to disown or leave you, aren't they STILL your child by BIRTH and DNA?

So we are HIS, a NEW creation, by BIRTH! WE have His Spiritual DNA! We have the Holy Spirit. He has SEALED us. How are WE going to break that seal? John wept convulsively because NO ONE could break the seals. ONLY the King, Jesus Christ could break the seals in Rev. And since He says He will NEVER leave us, HE isn't going to break the sea the Holy Spirit put on us.

Now there are those that HAVE abandoned the faith. Again, we have a very clear example of what that looks like in the Apostle Judas Iscariot. He proved that you can have faith but not truly believe. Why did he initially heed Jesus' calling? Why did he stay with Him 3 yrs? He certainly had some measure of faith, BUT was never born again. He exemplified the soil that had NO ROOT. That's what it ALWAYS boils down to. Have you been born again, a NEW creation. A child who knows Jesus and is Known by Him.

There are two things. Scripture and the cults. The Bible tells us that those who follow and obey Jesus are secure.

The cults tell us that once they are saved, they are always saved regardless, despite the fact that scripture tells us, "if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgement. Hebrews 10:26-29

(I have things to do.)

 

[Ralph-]

P...,

You are invited to do a survey and I assure you that a vast majority of board participants knows someone who has been a back slider and returned to Christ.

Backsliders and doubters can come back to Christ. It is the Christ denier who can not come back to Christ. Once Christ turns him over to his contemptuous unbelief he is not allowed to repent again.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

This person must think that judas iscariot was saved

funny how Jesus knew judas was a devil before the works of betrayal judas commited

i wonder if .... Jesus was looking to his heart maybe?
or is it just God is all powerful and all knowing and simply called it as He saw it?...

either way

if he was of us
surely he no doubt would have continued with us


pretenders do not decieve our Holy Father

He will not lose one of His

 

[PennEd]

There are two things. Scripture and the cults. The Bible tells us that those who follow and obey Jesus are secure.

The cults tell us that once they are saved, they are always saved regardless, despite the fact that scripture tells us, "if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgement. Hebrews 10:26-29

(I have things to do.)

Once again, we have a description of those that received the KNOWLEDGE of the Truth BUT NOT THE TRUTH HIMSELF! JESUS IS THE TRUTH, THE WAY, AND THE LIFE!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

funny how Jesus knew judas was a devil before the works of betrayal judas commited

i wonder if .... Jesus was looking to his heart maybe?
or is it just God is all powerful and all knowing and simply called it as He saw it?...

either way

if he was of us
surely he no doubt would have continued with us


pretenders do not decieve our Holy Father

He will not lose one of His

Jesus knew from the start, he is not fooled, Judas did not fool him, he knew all along,

He also does not make mistakes and save people, only to have to take back that salvation and promises he made to that person when he first (supposedly) saved him.

 

[justpassinthrough]

It is impossible that Paul is saying we can have no works of obedience and still be saved. That contradicts all the other plain passages of scripture that say that person will not inherit the kingdom. Dead faith can not save. The person in the passage is saved, so we know he's not talking about having dead faith but being saved anyway.

The context of the passage is one's labor in planting and watering the field of God and building the building of God. That is what you can have no successful work concerning and you will still be saved.

Here are some scriptures to name a few.


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:6-11

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good

And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. Titus 3:14


maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.


Unfruitful branches who are in Him, are removed and cast into the fire and burned.


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6



In Christ = Eternal life

Removed from Christ = Eternal Damnation in the fires of hell.





JPT

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Backsliders and doubters can come back to Christ. It is the Christ denier who can not come back to Christ. Once Christ turns him over to his contemptuous unbelief he is not allowed to repent again.

Th christ denier was never saved to begin with.

1 john 2 is your enemy, it calls the christ denier an antichrist, and says clearly, they were never of us, if they were, they never would have left (become a denier or antichrist)

 

[Ralph-]

No on said they had no works now did they?

The passage says they escaped as through fire. They escape with nothing but their own skin. Like a person standing in the street in nothing but his underwear watching his apartment building go up in flames.

It would help if you stopped trying to read into what people say and try to actually understand them

It would help if you stop being Hypergrace once saved always saved one day (people with no works will be saved when Jesus comes back) and being traditional once saved always saved the next (people with no works are not really saved).

The bible says peopl can lose rewards, it never says they can lose salvation.

The Galatians were in danger of losing the inheritance because they were toying with going back to the law and away from Christ for justification.

Of course a convenient redefinition of what eternal life is helps the passage not really mean that.

You question why paul said these people were still saved, as a man who escapes a burning building with his life, but lost everything he had.

If they had no works of right living they would have a dead faith. James said a dead faith can not save. Other scriptures teach us that the person who lives in his old life won't be saved. So we know that Paul is not talking about not having any works of right living. The context shows us he is talking about works of service in building the building of God and planting and watering the field of God. It has nothing to do with living a moral life vs. not living a moral life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here are some scriptures to name a few.


God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
Romans 2:6-11

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

• glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good

And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful. Titus 3:14


maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.


Unfruitful branches who are in Him, are removed and cast into the fire and burned.


Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; John 15:2


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6



In Christ = Eternal life

Removed from Christ = Eternal Damnation in the fires of hell.





JPT

Removed from christ.

Now thats a good one, to bad it is not found in scriputure, jesus said he will leave the whole flock to go find that one sheep that walked away, and when he finds him his sheep knows his coice and follows.

 

[justpassinthrough]

No. I fully understand what YOU are saying. I just completely disagree with it. Those people were NEVER born again children of God. You know who were/are? These people:
Hebrews 6:
A Better Estimate
9 But, beloved, we are CONFIDENT of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany SALVATION, though we speak in this manner. 10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and [d]labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the FULL ASSURANCE of hope until the end, 12 that you do not become [e]sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Then you have rejected the knowledge of the truth.

• lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

• For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JPT

 

[Ralph-]

Th christ denier was never saved to begin with.

Tell that to the Galatians.

1 john 2 is your enemy, it calls the christ denier an antichrist, and says clearly, they were never of us, if they were, they never would have left (become a denier or antichrist)

Vs. 24 is your enemy. John tells them to let the word continue in them. So apparently they could leave too, even though he says they are clearly saved.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Tell that to the Galatians.

better yet

tell that to galatea


then she can meet with the galatians at galilee and tell them

 

[PS]

Once again, we have a description of those that received the KNOWLEDGE of the Truth BUT NOT THE TRUTH HIMSELF! JESUS IS THE TRUTH, THE WAY, AND THE LIFE!

Correct. This is why we should not follow two masters or one master and one cult.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The passage says they escaped as through fire. They escape with nothing but their own skin. Like a person standing in the street in nothing but his underwear watching his apartment building go up in flames.

Yep, because all their reward was burnt, nohing was left.

It would help if you stop being Hypergrace once saved always saved one day (people with no works will be saved when Jesus comes back) and being traditional once saved always saved the next (people with no works are not really saved).

Again, i never said, not did the oassage say they never did any wrk, it would help if you stopped putting everyone in an osas/hypergrace camp and actually listened to what they say, instead of assuming like you always do

The Galatians were in danger of losing the inheritance because they were toying with going back to the law and away from Christ for justification.

If they had true faith in god, and not more faith in religion or the law. They would never have toyed with it.

We follow our heart, if our heart is the law, we will always return the law, because that is where our heart is, that goes for any form of religion, we may try a new thing, but as scripture says, a dog will always return to his vomit. Why? He is still a dog (he was never made a new creature

Of course a convenient redefinition of what eternal life is helps the passage not really mean that.

Eternal life means eternal life, it means you will live forever. It is the opposite of conditional life, which means your life is conditioned on what you do or do do, and is anything but eternal

If they had no works of right living they would have a dead faith. James said a dead faith can not save. Other scriptures teach us that the person who lives in his old life won't be saved. So we know that Paul is not talking about not having any works of right living. The context shows us he is talking about works of service in building the building of God and planting and watering the field of God. It has nothing to do with living a moral life vs. not living a moral life.

Who said they never had works? If there faith was real at one time, and they were saved, they would have had to have works, otherwise their faith was dead and they were never saved, so being saved through fire would not be possible.

Your selective listening is getting worse ralph

 

[PS]

Show us the word "saved" in the text.

You would need to follow the conversation back. Someone was disputing whether they were saved and I said
"through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ"
Saved!

 

[garee]

Your joking. You mean to say none of the Old Testament saints will be in Glory because they didn't know Jesus. I assume you know who Jesus is?

Here are some people who knew the Lord Jesus Christ and have returned back into the corruption of the world.

2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

Big fail for OSAS.

LOL ...Big fail for searching for context . Its the same group in Hebrews 6 . The self righteous ones that crucify the lord Jesus over and over exposing Him to public shame as if one work was not enough to appease the wrath of the Father.

They went out from the true believers because they were not of us to begin with. Better things accompany salvation like redemption. he is our confidence we put no confidence in the flesh as that seen

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

It has nothing to with those saved. He is not speaking to those in whom he has begun the good work of salvation. He promise them He will finish it to the end .

Note … Purple Highlight ……...un-converted men and.Red highlight OSAS



These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 2 Peter 2


20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Christ continues to wash OSAS...…….. all the way to the end

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Tell that to the Galatians.

Tell them what? That if their true faith is in the law they are decievers and never knew christ to begin with?

That dogs return to their vomit, not new creatures.

That if they go back they will never come back to truth, because they have seen truth, they know it and rejected it for law?

I think paul and others did that quite well,

 

[justpassinthrough]

LOL ...Big fail for searching for context . Its the same group in Hebrews 6 . The self righteous ones that crucify the lord Jesus over and over exposing Him to public shame as if one work was not enough to appease the wrath of the Father.

They went out from the true believers because they were not of us to begin with. Better things accompany salvation like redemption. he is our confidence we put no confidence in the flesh as that seen

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

It has nothing to with those saved. He is not speaking to those in whom he has begun the good work of salvation. He promise them He will finish it to the end .

Note … Purple Highlight ……...un-converted men and.Red highlight OSAS



These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 2 Peter 2


20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Christ continues to wash OSAS...…….. all the way to the end

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Please explain how a person can depart from Christ, without ever being in Him, being a part of Him.

• lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;

• For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, Hebrews 3:12-14



JPT