A place for rapture questions

[Ahwatukee]

No need to fear Gods wrath Ahwatukee

I'm amazed at the lack of comprehension of those who read my posts. I did not say anything about fearing God's wrath. What I did say is that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

In your previous post, you made 1 Thes.4:16-18 synonymous with Zephaniah 1, which I said are two different events with 1 Thes. being about the gathering of the church prior to God's wrath and Zephaniah being about God's wrath. In your previous post you made the gathering of the church and the time period of God's wrath as being the same and that because of the words "clouds" and "trumpet."

1 THESSALONIANS 5 [9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, [10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Here we see the people of God are not appointed to wrath. The Rapturist claim we are not appointed to wrath because we will be raptured into heaven during this period. You will not find one scripture that says we are going to heaven when we are changed “in the twinkling of an eye”. Not a one. So lets seee why we are not appointed to wrath.

Well sorry, but below is that scripture that says we are going to heaven:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

Jesus made the above promise to His disciples and to all believers. He says that there are many rooms in His Father's house and that He was going to prepare places for us which can only be referring to heaven. Then He says that He is going to come back to take us to the Father's house to the places that He prepared for us, which again would be in the Father's house in heaven.

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

You people just continue to repeat the same popular false apologetics over and over again.

First of all, the scripture above is referring to His disciples that they should not be taken out of the world at that particular time. It does not mean that believers would never be taken out of the world. After all, the disciples needed to remain on the earth to preach the gospel, which is why they are not being removed at that time. But according to other scripture, once the church is completed, then the Lord will appear and gather the church, taking us back to the Father's house and that prior to His wrath

In regards to John 17:14, Jesus also said the following:

"Little children, I am with you only a little while longer. You will look for Me, and as I said to the Jews, so now I say to you: ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’ Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked. Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.”

So, in the scripture above, Jesus is telling His disciples that He is going back to the Father and that they cannot at that time follow Him, but they will follow later. And since we know that Jesus ascended to the right hand of God in heaven, that when He comes for us, He will be taking us back to where He went, which is the Father's house.

Yeah, we ain't a going nowhere but we will be protected. We will be kept from the evil to come.

Just by your saying that we will be protected demonstrates that you do not understand the severity and magnitude of the God's coming wrath. It is not going to be a picnic! During that time the majority of the inhabitants will be decimated and all human government dismantled. For you to make the claim above, you obviously have not studied the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments or you would be saying that believers will be protected during the time of God's wrath.

Furthermore, the church is never mention within chapters 6 thru 18, which is the narrative of God's wrath. The word "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then abruptly disappears from use after the end of chapter 3.

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

We all should know that the tribulation period comes before the “Day of the Lord”. Gods wrath does not begin until the Day of the Lord which immediatley happens AFTER the tribulation period. Scripture above points out that we should seek the Lord BEFORE the “Day of the Lord” that we shall be hid during the Day of the Lords anger. Not a word about the tribulation period.

How is it that you people who no nothing about end-time events are always debating with those who have studied it? The "day of the Lord" is the tribulation period! The "Day of the Lord" is the time period of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The book of Revelation, for the most part, is a detailed account of the "Day of the Lord."

* You are here

* The Lord descends and the church is gathered and taken back to heaven

Wrath of God begins

* Antichrist makes his seven year covenant, which is depicted by the first seal, which initiates God's time of wrath

* In the middle of the seven the antichrist sets up the abomination, proclaiming himself to be God

* Antichrist/Beast makes war against the great tribulation saints and conquers them during that last 3 1/2 years

* At the end of that last 3 1/2 years Christ returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom

* The beast and the false prophet are thrown alive into the lake of fire

* Satan is seized and thrown into the Abyss during the thousand year reign of Christ

* The thousand year reign of Christ, a time of peace

* Satan released at the end of the thousand years and has one last rellion

* Satan thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet will have been thrown

* Great white throne judgment of all the unrighteous dead throughout all history

* New Heaven, new earth, New Jerusalem

Where will we be waiting on the Lord? Trying to keep His ways? Yeah, right here on Gods green earth. And when He comes to destroy the wicked...were gonna see it happen

If believers were here on the earth when God destroys the wicked, they would also be destroyed with them and God does not punish the righteous with the wicked. Again, because you believe the above, you have no idea of the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. For example:

At the opening of the 4th seal the result is a fourth of the earths population is killed, which based on our current population would equal approx. 1.7 billion fatalities.

At the sounding of the 1st trumpet, a third of the earth and trees are burned up. You can't have a third of the earth burned up without there being many people being affected and there being many fatalities.

At the sounding of the 2nd trumpet an object hits in one of the oceans the result being all of the ships in that body of water being destroyed and all of creatures in that body of water being killed, equaling a third over all the earth. How many people on those ships? Would any of them be believers in Christ? The ships are will be destroyed because of the giant waves that will be created by that object hitting in the ocean. Because of that, all of the cities on every shore that that body of water touches, towns and villages exposed to that body of water will be destroyed and all the people in them. Would there be any believers in those cities?

At the sounding of the 3rd trumpet a third of the rivers and fresh water is contaminated, so that many people die from drinking the water. Will there be any believers drinking that water?

At the 4th bowl judgment, the angel pours out his bowl on the sun causing it to scorch people with intense heat. Since everyone on the earth is exposed to the sun, how would believers be protected from this plague of wrath?

I have listed just a couple of the plagues of wrath to show you how ridiculous it is to think that the church would be here during the time of God's wrath. Now, instead of looking for some weak apologetics regarding what I just shared with you, why don't you take the information to heart and look into it instead of protecting the false teachings that you have adopted.

 

[Wall]

Well sorry, but below is that scripture that says we are going to heaven:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

Just read that scripture. Clearly says He will come back to earth. Says nothing of bringing us to heaven

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Bringing us to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain {in the twinkling of an eye}

 

[Ahwatukee]

Just read that scripture. Clearly says He will come back to earth. Says nothing of bringing us to heaven

I would tell you the same thing to you, "just read the scripture!" Below is the scripture:

"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

So, Jesus says that there are many rooms in His Father's house, which could only be referring to heaven. He then says that He is going to prepare a place for us (each believer), which again would be in the Father's house which is in heaven. He also says that He is going to come back to welcome us into His presence so that we may be where He is, which again would be in the Father's house. Furthermore, it would make no sense for Jesus to go to the Father's house to prepare places for us and then not take us there.

Jesus went to the Father's house (heaven)

He prepared places for us

He's coming back to take us to the Father's house to those places that he prepared for us

Why do people make this so difficult to understand?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 will be the fulfillment of John 14:1-3


JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Bringing us to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain {in the twinkling of an eye}[/QUOTE]

Do you see the word "Israel" throughout that entire scripture? This has to do specifically with Israel, not the church. During the millennial period the Lord will rule from Jerusalem on the throne of David, which will be the capital of the world.

I'm afraid that all you have done is taken scripture pertaining to Israel and have misapplied it to the church.

 

[Wall]

I would tell you the same thing to you, "just read the scripture!" Below is the scripture:

"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

So, Jesus says that there are many rooms in His Father's house, which could only be referring to heaven. He then says that He is going to prepare a place for us (each believer), which again would be in the Father's house which is in heaven. He also says that He is going to come back to welcome us into His presence so that we may be where He is, which again would be in the Father's house. Furthermore, it would make no sense for Jesus to go to the Father's house to prepare places for us and then not take us there.

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The many mansions? Its the new Jerusalem that is brought to this earth. NO MORE TEARS!

ZECH. 8 [1] Again the word of the Lord of hosts came to me, saying, [2] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; I was jealous for Zion with great jealousy, and I was jealous for her with great fury. [3] THUS SAITH THE LORD; I AM RETURNED UNTO ZION, AND WILL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the Lord of hosts the holy mountain. [4] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age. [5] And the streets of the city shall be full of boys and girls playing in the streets thereof. [6] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the Lord of hosts. [7] Thus saith the Lord of hosts; Behold, I WILL SAVE MY PEOPLE FROM THE EAST COUNTRY, AND FROM THE WEST COUNTRY; [8] AND I WILL BRING THEM, AND THEY SHALL DWELL IN THE MIDST OF JERUSALEM: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

The new Jerusalem {many mansions} will be in Zion, in the midst of old Jerusalem. Its there He will “bring” us in the twinkling of an eye. Not to heaven

 

[Wall]

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Bringing us to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain {in the twinkling of an eye}

Do you see the word "Israel" throughout that entire scripture? This has to do specifically with Israel, not the church.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying Christ has 2 brides? Yikes! Never heard that one before

 

[Ahwatukee]

REVELATION 21 [1] And I saw a NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.[2]And I John saw the holy city, NEW JERUSALEM, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.[3]And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, BEHOLD, THE TABERNACLE OF GOD IS WITH MEN, AND HE WILL DWELL WITH THEM, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.[4]And God shall WIPE AWAY ALL TEARS from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.[5]And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The many mansions? Its the new Jerusalem that is brought to this earth. NO MORE TEARS!

No! Remember, Jesus went to the Father's house, which is in heaven. He's coming back to take us to where He is, which is in the Father's house in heaven. You also have to consider that Rev.19:7, 14, has the bride, i.e. the church, in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen, white and clean and then shows us following Christ out of heaven as He returns to the earth to end the age.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Do you see the word "Israel" throughout that entire scripture? This has to do specifically with Israel, not the church.

Are you saying Christ has 2 brides? Yikes! Never heard that one before[/QUOTE]

No, scripture status that Israel is God the Father's wife and the church is the bride, i.e. not yet a wife.

 

[shrume]

I would tell you the same thing to you, "just read the scripture!" Below is the scripture:

"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

So, Jesus says that there are many rooms in His Father's house, which could only be referring to heaven. He then says that He is going to prepare a place for us (each believer), which again would be in the Father's house which is in heaven. He also says that He is going to come back to welcome us into His presence so that we may be where He is, which again would be in the Father's house. Furthermore, it would make no sense for Jesus to go to the Father's house to prepare places for us and then not take us there.

Jesus went to the Father's house (heaven)

He prepared places for us

He's coming back to take us to the Father's house to those places that he prepared for us

Why do people make this so difficult to understand?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 will be the fulfillment of John 14:1-3


JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Bringing us to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain {in the twinkling of an eye}

Do you see the word "Israel" throughout that entire scripture? This has to do specifically with Israel, not the church. During the millennial period the Lord will rule from Jerusalem on the throne of David, which will be the capital of the world.

I'm afraid that all you have done is taken scripture pertaining to Israel and have misapplied it to the church.

1 Thes 4:
17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the rapture, we will "ever be with the Lord". We might spend most of the seven years of the trib in heaven, but when Christ returns to earth to fight Armageddon and set up the kingdom, where he'll rule the world from Jerusalem, we'll be with him. Our eventual destiny is the earth, not heaven.

Concerning John 14:2, the "Father's house" refers to the kingdom, not a literal house in heaven with rooms in it that we'll be living in. There will be lots of places to live in the kingdom, which will be on earth.

 

[Wall]

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

I am married to you {the bride of Christ}. Bringing us to Jerusalem, Zion, His Holy Mountain {in the twinkling of an eye}

Do you see the word "Israel" throughout that entire scripture? This has to do specifically with Israel, not the church. During the millennial period the Lord will rule from Jerusalem on the throne of David, which will be the capital of the world.

I'm afraid that all you have done is taken scripture pertaining to Israel and have misapplied it to the church.[/QUOTE]

So if the bride is Israel {Jer.3}, wheres that leave the gentiles?

MATTHEW [24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Ya see what Jesus said

JOHN 10 [14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and ONE SHEPHERD.

I MUST BRING! Jesus said there were “others” not of the fold of the house of Israel. These “others” are the gentiles that hear His voice. Them also He will bring.... Bring where? Bring to heaven as the raptuist claim? Nope. At the time when Jesus does bring us we will have but ONE SHEPHERD.

EZEKIEL 37 [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will GATHER THEM on every side, and BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND: [22]And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: [23] Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. [24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have ONE SHEPHERD: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. [25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. [26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. [27] My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

Jesus gathers His people {in the twinkling of an eye} and BRINGS them to Israel, to the kingdom. We will have but ONE SHEPHERD

ZECHARIAH 8 [7] Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country; [8] And I will BRING THEM, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD {Zeke37v27}, in truth and in righteousness

The kingdom rest will be in the midst of Jerusalem

ISAIAH 56 [6] Also THE SONS OF THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord God which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, YET WILL I GATHER OTHERS TO HIM, beside those that are gathered unto him.

Jesus brings them to His Holy Mountain. The kingdom rest. Yes, the “others” {John 10v16} {Isaiah 56v8} are the gentiles. So when the LAST TRUMPET {1Cor.15} sounds we meet the Lord in the air and Jesus “brings” us to His holy mountain in Jerusalem for the kingdom rest. Not off to heaven as the Rapturist claim.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good day Wall:

So if the bride is Israel {Jer.3}, where's that leave the gentiles?

I never said that Israel was the bride. The bride is the church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile.

MATTHEW [24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Ya see what Jesus said

JOHN 10 [14] I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. [15] As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. [16] And OTHER SHEEP I HAVE, WHICH ARE NOT OF THIS FOLD: THEM ALSO I MUST BRING, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and ONE SHEPHERD.

I MUST BRING! Jesus said there were “others” not of the fold of the house of Israel. These “others” are the gentiles that hear His voice. Them also He will bring.... Bring where? Bring to heaven as the raptuist claim? Nope. At the time when Jesus does bring us we will have but ONE SHEPHERD.

EZEKIEL 37 [21] And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will GATHER THEM on every side, and BRING THEM INTO THEIR OWN LAND: [22]And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: [23] Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. [24] And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have ONE SHEPHERD: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. [25] And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. [26] Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore. [27] My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

You have to be able to discern who the scripture above is speaking about, which is directed to Israel, not the church. You have to understand that the church and Israel are two different dispensations, with different paths and different promises. For example, those in Christ are and have been waiting for His return to gather us where we will receive our immortal and glorified bodies and that prior to God's wrath. However, God has unfinished business with Israel, namely the fulfillment of that last seven years of the seventy seven year periods that was decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. That last seven years is the time period when God is going to fulfill that decree with Israel and is also when He will be pouring out His wrath upon a Christ rejecting world.

Jesus gathers His people {in the twinkling of an eye} and BRINGS them to Israel, to the kingdom. We will have but ONE SHEPHERD

Again, you have misapplied scripture. the scripture regarding "the twinkling of an eye" which is found in 1 Cor.15:52, is synonymous with I Thes.4:16 and has to do with the individual within the church being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. This is not a promise for Israel.

Jesus brings them to His Holy Mountain. The kingdom rest. Yes, the “others” {John 10v16} {Isaiah 56v8} are the gentiles. So when the LAST TRUMPET {1Cor.15} sounds we meet the Lord in the air and Jesus “brings” us to His holy mountain in Jerusalem for the kingdom rest. Not off to heaven as the Rapturist claim.

The "last trumpet" has nothing to do with Israel, but is the promise of the gathering of the church. Israel is the woman of Rev.12:6, 14 who will be on the earth during the time of the beast and his kingdom. Jesus tells them that when they see the abomination standing in the holy place to flee out into the wilderness to that place that God will have prepared for here where she will be cared for during the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Israel will still be on this earth when Jesus returns. But as far as the church, we will have already been in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb and will be returning with Christ riding on white horses.

As I said, the plans for the church are completely different from those of Israel. When you read scripture, you need to understand who is being spoken of. The church is made of both Jew and Gentile. But God is also going to deal with the unbelieving nation of Israel.

 

[Wall]

Good day Wall:

I never said that Israel was the bride. The bride is the church, which is made up of both Jew and Gentile.

You may never have said that Israel is the Bride but the Word of God says it is so

JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Israel is the bride

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Israel the bride

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.

 

[Ahwatukee]

You may never have said that Israel is the Bride but the Word of God says it is so

JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Israel is the bride

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Israel the bride

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.

Wall, I'm afraid that your error is between understanding the difference between a bride and a wife. Israel is the wife of the Father, as in already married. where the church is the bride of Christ and not yet His wife.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.

And what does the New Testament say? And how do you reconcile the two?

 

[Wall]

Wall, I'm afraid that your error is between understanding the difference between a bride and a wife. Israel is the wife of the Father, as in already married. where the church is the bride of Christ and not yet His wife.

JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Here Israel is the Wife

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

And here Israel is the Bride

 

[Wall]

Furthermore, the church is never mention within chapters 6 thru 18, which is the narrative of God's wrath. The word "church" is used 19 times throughout chapters 1 thru 3 and then abruptly disappears from use after the end of chapter 3.

The church aint a missin

REVELATION 19 [7] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. [8] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of SAINTS.

Marriage of the Lamb to the Saints

DANIEL 7 [27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of THE KINGDOM UNDER THE WHOLE HEAVEN, SHALL BE GIVEN TO THE PEOPLE OF THE SAINTS OF THE MOST HIGH, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The kingdom given to the Saints

1 CORINTHIANS 1 [2] Unto the CHURCH OF GOD WHICH IS AT CORINTH, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, CALLED TO BE SAINTS, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

Church of the Corinthians that are called to be Saints

ROMANS 1 [7] To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, CALLED TO BE SAINTS: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Church of the Romans that are called to be Saints

EPHESIANS 1 [1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS WHICH ARE AT EPHESUS, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

And again, the Ephesians are the Saints of God

COLOSSIANS 1 [1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, [2] TO THE SAINTS and faithful brethren in Christ WHICH ARE AT COLOSSE: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The church of Colossians are the Saints

REVELATION 13 [3] And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. [4] And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, WHO IS LIKE UNTO THE BEAST? WHO IS ABLE TO MAKE WAR WITH HIM? [5] And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. [6] And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. [7] And IT WAS GIVEN UNTO HIM TO MAKE WAR WITH THE SAINTS, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Looky looky! Here we find the beast making war against Gods Saints. If you believe the above scriptures that say the Saints belong to the various churhes you gotta know they have not been raptured as the Rapturist claim. They claim the church will not confront the beast at all. Dilly Dilly!

 

[garee]

You may never have said that Israel is the Bride but the Word of God says it is so

JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Israel is the bride

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Israel the bride

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.

Yes twelve a word that denotes the authority of God in respect to the old Testament saints are represented as gates in respect to the twelve tribes with the tribe of Dan missing to represent evil as in judgement and twelve a remnant of all Apostles the apostles, sent ones, with Judas missing to represent the same evil as falling back in judgment at the final wrath (the last day ) .Altogether as a new creature, neither male nor female, Jew nor gentile make up the lively stones that does make up the spiritual house as the chaste virgin bride of Christ, the church

 

[Wall]

How is it that you people who no nothing about end-time events are always debating with those who have studied it? The "day of the Lord" is the tribulation period! The "Day of the Lord" is the time period of God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. The book of Revelation, for the most part, is a detailed account of the "Day of the Lord."

Ya might wanna study a little bit harder Ahwatukee

MARK 13 [19] For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.[20] And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.[21] And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:[22] For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.[23] But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

{verses 19-23 describe the trib period}
{verses 24-27 describe the Day of the Lord}

[24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the SUN SHALL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON SHALL NOT GIVE HER LIGHT,[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

In Mark you see the great tribulation period is FOLLOWED by a dark sun and dark moon

JOEL 2 [10] The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: THE SUN AND THE MOON SHALL BE DARK, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: [11] And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for THE DAY OF THE LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

JOEL 2 [30] And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. [31] THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE GREAT AND THE TERRIBLE DAY OF THE LORD COME.

In Joel we find the sun will be darkened and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day of the Lord

ACTS 2[19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, BEFORE THAT GREAT AND NOTABLE DAY OF THE LORD COME:

As found in Joel; found in the book of Acts

There can be no doubt. Joel and Mark and Acts are speaking of the same event. The book of Acts & Joel says the the sun will be darkened BEFORE the "day of the Lord". Mark says the sun will be darkened AFTER the tribulation. How can anyone claim the great tribulation period to be part of the "day of the Lord" if the "day of the Lord" doesnt begin till AFTER the tribulation?

 

[Wall]

Thanks for bringing that up Awatukee. Theres this Feldeck guy on TV that keeps saying the trib period is the Day of the Lord. Its frustrating to yell at a TV. Anyways i guess his rapture theory cant work without him saying that

 

[Deade]

Anyone waiting for "bricks and mortar" temple are in for a very very very looooong wait.

Trying to reason with @Ahwatukee is like arguing with a brick and mortar wall.

 

[MattforJesus]

Mt. Zion is found here on earth. As well, the new Jerusalem will be here on earth. So there are no scriptures that say we are going to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event. Not a one.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

All sin must be purged with fire, and this heaven, and earth has been tainted with sin, and must pass away, and it is physical, where the new heaven and earth is spiritual, which is why there is no more sea.

Jesus went away from the earth to prepare a place for the saints, the New Jerusalem, and that is where the saints shall be for eternity.

The New Jerusalem is a place where sin has never been, and sin will never be, and sin and rebellion will never come up again, and the old heaven and earth shall not be remembered, nor come to mind, for they are associated with sin and rebellion, and to know of the old heaven and earth they would know about sin and rebellion.

When the saints and angels are at the New Jerusalem they will remember nothing prior to that, not even their family, and friends, and they will feel as if they have always been there and nowhere else.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.

Jesus had to fulfill the law, and all the positions in Israel, which He is the perfect King, High Priest, Prophet, Saint, temple, sacrifice, and whatever else He had to fulfill.

But He has not fulfilled the role of King on earth yet, for He came as a humble servant, and not to rule, and that is what the millennial reign on earth is about, and why the kingdom on earth will be restored to Israel.

When the 1000 years is over Jesus had fulfilled the law and heaven and earth shall pass away, and there will be a new heaven, and a new earth, the New Jerusalem.