Is faith a reliable way to know truth?

[Zmouth]

Belief is not "how" we come to know God... belief is our response to knowing God.
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That appears to contradict what is written in Hebrews 11:6,

"...for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

so I take it that you came to know God without first believing, or having the hope that there was God since a person doesn't seek something or something that they don't believe exists.

 

[maxwel]

That appears to contradict what is written in Hebrews 11:6,

"...for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

so I take it that you came to know God without first believing, or having the hope that there was God since a person doesn't seek something or something that they don't believe exists.

Zmouth,

Since you're not a believer, and you admit you're not a believer...

why exactly am I debating the finer points of Christian faith with a person who doesn't have any, and doesn't want any?





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[Magenta]

That appears to contradict what is written in Hebrews 11:6,

"...for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

so I take it that you came to know God without first believing, or having the hope that there was God since a person doesn't seek something or something that they don't believe exists.

When I cried out to God for help, I did not believe in the God of the Bible. There is perhaps a bit of a paradox in this, for in Romans 1 we are told that those who reject the knowledge of God are without excuse, for His presence/the fact that He exists is overtly manifest in creation. Still, people can acknowledge there is something, some force, some spiritual reality, behind all that we can see and sense with our other senses, without having what they might consider direct experience or knowledge of God, at least not enough to move them to faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ upon the cross as a fulfillment of God's plan for salvation to those who believe... Such people, not knowing God in a way that saves them, may still pray, and earnestly desire to know, and seek after truth. Jesus Christ is the embodiment of Truth, and it is promised to those that seek diligently, that they will find. God does reveal Himself, even to those who do not believe in Him. If this were not true, the older testaments would be short a few stories at least.

 

[Magenta]

I also meant to mention the unknown God that people were worshiping in Acts 17, verses 22 forward:

Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us, 28 for ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are indeed his offspring.’

29 Being then God’s offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

 

[OneFaith]

If, for example, a Hindu says "I have faith that Vishnu is my lord and saviour", does that make Vishnu true?

God always leaves room for faith, cause without faith it's impossible to please God. But He does not give us only that to go on. Jesus performed many miracles, and we are surrounded by such a great crowd of witnesses throughout history. It has been written in history, and not just in the bible. Such a huge amount of people from such a long spand of time could not pull off such a hoax, and what motive would they have to do so anyways?

But false religions do not have truth on their side, nor substance. Like Buddhism for example. A guy sits under a tree fasting and thinking until he comes up with the meaning of life? And what did he come up with? Stop wanting so that you can't get disappointed? The root of this religion is focus on self- that's self-worship. Whereas in Christianity the main focus is pleasing God, not ourself. Humans are flawed, God is always right and good. Why would I put my faith in a human, especially myself- knowing my flaws?

And if he had such a revelation under a tree, and if it were the truth all should live by, what about the many people who lived and died long before their so-called needed doctrine? I'm not putting my faith in mankind or in statues or creation, that's foolish.

 

[Zmouth]

Let's take a look at 1 John 4:1 (a verse you quoted):

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world

The word "believe" is the Greek word pisteuete a form of pisteúō.

Pisteúō means:​

​

4100 pisteúō (from 4102 /pístis, "faith," derived from 3982 /peíthō, "persuade, be persuaded") – believe (affirm, have confidence); used of persuading oneself (= human believing) and with the sacred significance of being persuaded by the Lord (= faith-believing). Only the context indicates whether 4100 /pisteúō ("believe") is self-serving (without sacred meaning), or the believing that leads to/proceeds from God's inbirthing of faith.​

Copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc.​

​

​

Yet you don't answer the question.

Can you believe that 'believing' and 'faith' are not the same thing?

So if have faith that all things are possible with God then do you believe it is possible for the God of truth to lie? The reason I ask is due to you only cite one reason, being the subjective interpretation of the Greek word '4100 pisteúō' means the same thing as the Greek word ' 3982' peíthō, when it is written, that by two immutable things it is impossible for God to lie. (See Hebrews 6:18)

Not really a paradox. God's glory and righteousness is revealed in His creation (Psalm 19:1; 50:6); God's eternal power and divinity is clearly seen in His creation (Rom 1:20).

Since a paradox is a self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true, then yes, for a person to come to the eternal God based upon what they know or have seen (see John 3:11) is a paradox since nothing in the known and observed universe reflects the eternal since nothing in this universe has always existed and if you believe the heaven and earth created in Genesis 1:1 will "shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.' as written in 2 Peter 3:10 will exist forever.

Therefore any living thing which has a beginning of days would also have an end of life. Thus as a written in the Book of the Preacher, 'To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; '

 

[justpassinthrough]

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:16-17

• faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

What do you mean by this? Do you actually hear a voice speaking to you? Or do you mean that God speaks through the bible? The reason I ask is because humans are fallible. Since the bible is written by humans, how do you know that it is reliable? Because it says so in the bible? That's circular reasoning. If you mean you hear an actual voice, how do you know that is God?[/QUOTE]


The Bible is the written word, or message and is considered the Logos.


The word of faith, in Romans 10:17 is the Rhema word, which refers to that which is spoken.


7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. Hebrews 11:7


God spoke to Noah and Noah obeyed and built the Ark, by faith.


No bible in the days of Noah.



JPT

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Yet you don't answer the question.

I answered your question "Since a person doesn't any reason to hope something is true, can you give the reason you believe that 'faith' and 'believing' mean the same thing if you have faith in what you believe is the truth?"

The way your question ["Can you believe that 'believing' and 'faith' are not the same thing?"] is worded is somewhat ambiguous to me.

Is your question "Do you believe that 'believing' and 'faith' are the same thing"? Is that your question?

So if have faith that all things are possible with God then do you believe it is possible for the God of truth to lie? The reason I ask is due to you only cite one reason, being the subjective interpretation of the Greek word '4100 pisteúō' means the same thing as the Greek word ' 3982' peíthō, when it is written, that by two immutable things it is impossible for God to lie. (See Hebrews 6:18)

I do not believe God lies.

Pistis (translated multiple time as "faith" as well as "believe" in Scripture) is derived from peithō.

The two immutable things in which it is impossible for God to lie of Heb 6:18 are (1) God's promise, and (2) God's oath:

Hebrews 6:13-14 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

His promise was surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.

The oath by which His promise was ratified was He sware by Himself (because He could swear by no greater).

Since a paradox is a self-contradictory statement or proposition that when investigated or explained may prove to be well founded or true, then yes, for a person to come to the eternal God based upon what they know or have seen (see John 3:11) is a paradox since nothing in the known and observed universe reflects the eternal since nothing in this universe has always existed

Creation reflects the glory of God, the majesty of His eternal power and His divine nature. We observe nature, the stars in the heavens, the wonder of the birth of a child, and we are drawn to God.

Some may resist this drawing to God and in so doing, they step further and further from Him. This does not mean they do not have faith. It just means their faith is misplaced and, as a result, faith remains weak. They place the faith God gave them in order for them to recognize God's glory, His eternal power, His divine nature in something other than God. And they do this to their own detriment.

Others may be drawn to God and turn to Him. These grow closer to God in joyous fellowship and communion. Their faith grows strong. God works within their hearts and strengthens their faith.

 

[Zmouth]

Whoa, must have struck a nerve huh?

Zmouth,

Since you're not a believer, and you admit you're not a believer...

I have never claimed not to believe the truth, nor that I don't believe in the LORD.

While it is true that I do not claim to be a Christian, can you show me in the scriptures where a person must claim to be a Christian?

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Rom 3:4

But then again, it is written in Acts 11:26, "And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.", not that those who believed in the LORD claimed to be Christians.

why exactly am I debating the finer points of Christian faith with a person who doesn't have any, and doesn't want any? -------------

So how do you define Christian faith?

Since faith is the reason one believes something is true, the evidence of the truth in the hope.

".... and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you..."
1 Peter 3:15

Thus, it is error only that shrinks from inquiry, not truth.

 

[Renate]

"Is faith a reliable way to know truth?"


Faith is not an epistemology; it is not a method for knowing...
it is a response to what is known.

Most atheists, probably due to no fault of their own, have such a poor understanding of both theology and philosophy that their questions are virtually incoherent.




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I actually agree that it is a silly question, but I only asked it because christians have said to me that they know God exists because they have faith. So apparently to them faith is a method of knowing.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I agree with you that truth is objective. How is God clearly seen? I have never seen God.

He's "seen" in the heart, i.e., when the spirit of truth speaks to our spirit.

 

[Renate]

Do you have a real life example? When have simple things ever changed into complex things without outside influence?

I don't mean to say that simple things change into complex things, and I never mentioned "without outside influence". What I mean is that complexity can emerge out of the interaction between simple things. An example of this is an ant colony. An ant colony obviously consists of millions of ants. When looking at an individual ant, it displays rather simple behavior. It just searches for food and follows other ants around. But if you look at the colony, it forms mazelike structures, that seem like they need to have been designed by an architect. Yet there is no "architect ant", the structure emerges from the interaction between ants.

Other examples are the formation of snowflakes, birds flocking together, the stock market, etc.

If you are interested in this topic, I highly recommend the book "The Computational Beauty of Nature" by Gary William Flake. It's very indepth and fascinating.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Sorry, I don't see God in the universe. You are assuming that it is obvious to everyone that the universe was created, but it is not.

Science is meaningless apart from evidence; otherwise it just becomes faith. There is no evidence that anything can create itself. That doesn't prove that GOD created the universe, but it certainly does prove that science is unable to prove that GOD didn't create it.

 

[Renate]

"the assurance of things hoped for, the assurance of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1).

How is that different from belief without evidence?

The evidence is the resurrection of Jesus Christ after His certain death on a Roman cross. There is abundant evidence of both; more so than anything else in the ancient world.

Can you show me the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus? I have never seen any that held up to scrutiny .

 

[Renate]

God always leaves room for faith, cause without faith it's impossible to please God. But He does not give us only that to go on. Jesus performed many miracles, and we are surrounded by such a great crowd of witnesses throughout history. It has been written in history, and not just in the bible. Such a huge amount of people from such a long spand of time could not pull off such a hoax, and what motive would they have to do so anyways?

But false religions do not have truth on their side, nor substance.

How do you know other religions are false? Because it says so in the bible?

Like Buddhism for example. A guy sits under a tree fasting and thinking until he comes up with the meaning of life? And what did he come up with? Stop wanting so that you can't get disappointed? The root of this religion is focus on self- that's self-worship. Whereas in Christianity the main focus is pleasing God, not ourself. Humans are flawed, God is always right and good. Why would I put my faith in a human, especially myself- knowing my flaws?

And if he had such a revelation under a tree, and if it were the truth all should live by, what about the many people who lived and died long before their so-called needed doctrine? I'm not putting my faith in mankind or in statues or creation, that's foolish.

Why would you put your faith in something you don't know exists, rather than in something you do know exists, i.e. yourself, however flawed?

 

[Renate]

Science is meaningless apart from evidence; otherwise it just becomes faith. There is no evidence that anything can create itself. That doesn't prove that GOD created the universe, but it certainly does prove that science is unable to prove that GOD didn't create it.

You are right that there is no evidence that anything can create itself. But it's not inconceivable. After all, we have never seen a universe come into existence, and we don't know what laws apply to that sort of event. All we know is that within our universe we have never seen something create itself. But we don't know whether the same applies to universes. If the laws of physics came into existence with the beginning of the universe, then they don't apply to universes themselves. We simply don't know at this point.

 

[Renate]

Most atheists, probably due to no fault of their own, have such a poor understanding of both theology and philosophy that their questions are virtually incoherent.


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I have taken three university courses in philosophy, and read works by Plato, Descartes, Hume and Dennett, among others. So I don't think you are justified in saying I have a poor understanding of philosophy. As for theology, that's what I'm here to learn. The reason my opening questions sounds incoherent is only because I was following christian logic.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You are right that there is no evidence that anything can create itself. But it's not inconceivable. After all, we have never seen a universe come into existence, and we don't know what laws apply to that sort of event. All we know is that within our universe we have never seen something create itself. But we don't know whether the same applies to universes. If the laws of physics came into existence with the beginning of the universe, then they don't apply to universes themselves. We simply don't know at this point.

Speculation is a part of science, but alone without evidence it's simply metaphysics, which in essence is no different than religion.

 

[Renate]

Speculation is a part of science, but alone without evidence it's simply metaphysics, which in essence is no different than religion.

It's different from religion because religious people say: "We don't know how it happened, therefore God did it." Whereas scientists say "We don't know how it happened." and stop there. Then they do research to try to find out how it happened. That is a huge difference.

 

[trofimus]

If, for example, a Hindu says "I have faith that Vishnu is my lord and saviour", does that make Vishnu true?

No, faith is not a realiable source of truth.

Faith is a subjective thing. If its a source of truth, then humans are source of truth. They are not.

Truth is an objective reality which we can discover and know by evidence, revelation, logic and similar.

Faith without evidence is a blind faith. Faith in something that is not true is a false faith.