Baptism and holy spirit

[eternally-gratefull]

I never said one was not saved if they did not manifest the gift of holy spirit . . . well, I bet you hear from God so that would be word of wisdom and word of knowledge; I know that you probably discern spirits; I think that you have faith to walk out on what God ask you to do; and as for gifts; I bet you are a good teacher; and as for service; I bet you are a good encourager, a good builder-upper!

Why do you say that we are reading different Bibles and in what regard?

which is it, do I have them all as you say, or do I not have them all. you have me confused

Because I do not read a bible that says someone has all of those gifts in 1 cor 12.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Except, as he pointed out, that is not what Corinthians says. It's very clear... to one person, this is given, to another person, this is given.... simple English and grammar.

Scripture clearly states that not every believer will manifest every gift. It is the complete reason for this whole passage, to show how we, as believers ALL have a role to play, and the roles are NOT the same. Just as a body has different parts, each with a specific role to play. If you lose a hand, you don't start picking things up with your ear. Different roles. Different manifestations.

Well, if one believer is different "in kind" than another believer . . . then I probably would agree but because "another" is translated from two different Greek words . . . allos - of the same kind and heteros - of a different kind . . . . I can't quite agree. The Greek word "allos" would be used throughout because we are all the "same kind" - all believers are homosapiens - therefore the "same kind".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is a specific voice gift - actually named diversities of tongues - operated in a worship meeting by a Spirit-filled
disciple who already is able to pray in tongues due to their baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Such a speaking in tongues in a meeting is then followed by interpretation.

If you are not Pentecost and do not operate the three voice gifts of the Holy Spirit in your worship/communion meetings
[in accordance with the instructions in 1Corinthians 14] then you know nothing, and I mean nothing, about how this
all works and what 1Corinthians 12 and 14 are all about.

The epistles are written to the Spirit-filled church not to Catholics, not to Protestants, not to Orthodox.

Our church is spirit filled. Proven by the fact we have seen many miracles. and witnessed many people comming to christ, and seen many people who have been healed of their serious habits, and witness wonderful growth in christ. We see people who have a relaitionship with God. If you want to deny this is from God because we do not speak babble on our church service, or do healings by laying on of the hands in our church services. But go out and witness to the world. and pray for Gods healing, and witness this healing every day, and see those people come to church. well thats to bad,

we also understand the baptism of the HS is not the same as the anointing of the HS, where about the gifts actually come from.

If your Church can not understand the proper meaning of being baptized by God into Christ and his death, and his body, and this is the baptism of the holy spirit. And that after this, God anoints us with the spirit (the spirit comes into or upon us) where he manifests his presence by giving us gifts as he desires. Then I have to wonder what kind of church they are.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, if one believer is different "in kind" than another believer . . . then I probably would agree but because "another" is translated from two different Greek words . . . allos - of the same kind and heteros - of a different kind . . . . I can't quite agree. The Greek word "allos" would be used throughout because we are all the "same kind" - all believers are homosapiens - therefore the "same kind".

I do not know about your church, But we have different people, who are not the same kind People who have one gift are not the same kind of people you would see with another gift. The HS knows what he is doing, because god has made us all induviduals, and gifted us each our own special way.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

which is it, do I have them all as you say, or do I not have them all. you have me confused

Because I do not read a bible that says someone has all of those gifts in 1 cor 12.

This is what you said: Well I guess I am not saved then, I have maybe one or two of those gifts. . . . Also. Not sure what your reading.. We must be reading different bibles.
So to encourage you I said . . . . well, I bet you hear from God so that would be word of wisdom and word of knowledge; I know that you probably discern spirits; I think that you have faith to walk out on what God ask you to do; and as for gifts; I bet you are a good teacher; and as for service; I bet you are a good encourager, a good builder-upper!

I must not a very good encourager!!!!! You have the ability to operate all nine all the time!!! You said you only have one or two of those "gifts" which I knew you meant "manifestations" - you already said you don't speak in tongues although you have the ability, so I was trying to encourage you with some of the other manifestations that you do operate . . . . WOW . . .

Yes, you do have a bible that reads - BUT (change of subject, from gifts to manifestations) the manifestation of the spirit is given to EVERY MAN to profit withal . . . . then God list the manifestations . . . How simple can it be????

 

[shrume]

Except, as he pointed out, that is not what Corinthians says. It's very clear... to one person, this is given, to another person, this is given.... simple English and grammar.

So did Paul contradict himself two chapters later when he wrote this?

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

13) Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.

Also, we are told to "covet to prophesy" (1 Cor 14:39). Is that only for people who don't know what their particular "gift" is yet?

Also this:

1 Cor 14:
23) If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?

Isn't that saying it's possible for everyone in the church to all speak in tongues at once?

If Paul believed each Christian only got one "gift", how could he say "I want all of you to speak in tongues" (1 Cor 14:5)? Why would he want all Christians to receive "the least of the 'gifts'" (something many Christians believe...). That would leave nobody able to manifest the greater "gifts".

The overall context of 1 Cor 12-14 is Christian meetings. In Christian meetings, God inspires different people to do different things. That's one reason why in 1 Cor 12:8-10, the language "for to one", "to another", etc is used.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is what you said: Well I guess I am not saved then, I have maybe one or two of those gifts. . . . Also. Not sure what your reading.. We must be reading different bibles.
So to encourage you I said . . . . well, I bet you hear from God so that would be word of wisdom and word of knowledge; I know that you probably discern spirits; I think that you have faith to walk out on what God ask you to do; and as for gifts; I bet you are a good teacher; and as for service; I bet you are a good encourager, a good builder-upper!

I must not a very good encourager!!!!! You have the ability to operate all nine all the time!!! You said you only have one or two of those "gifts" which I knew you meant "manifestations" - you already said you don't speak in tongues although you have the ability, so I was trying to encourage you with some of the other manifestations that you do operate . . . . WOW . . .

Yes, you do have a bible that reads - BUT (change of subject, from gifts to manifestations) the manifestation of the spirit is given to EVERY MAN to profit withal . . . . then God list the manifestations . . . How simple can it be????

I do not have the ability to speak in tongues, If God wanted me to do it, He would.

Again, It says to one he gives this gift, to another he gives that gift so on and so forth.

Not everyone has the gift of tongues, I do not know who told you that, but they are wrong.

Bit I digress, Will not bash my sister on this non salvic doctrine.

 

[shrume]

I do not have the ability to speak in tongues, If God wanted me to do it, He would.

God is not responsible to make you speak in tongues. He does not possess people. Christians are responsible to -learn- what God has done for us in giving us the gift of the Holy Spirit and walk out on it.

Again, It says to one he gives this gift, to another he gives that gift so on and so forth.

We all have different gifts, but every Christian can operate the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Not everyone has the gift of tongues, I do not know who told you that, but they are wrong.

Tongues are a manifestation, not a gift. Every Christian has the gift of the Holy Spirit, and can manifest that gift. God (through Paul) would like all Christians to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5). Every Christian is to "covet to prophesy" (1 Cor 14:39).

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I do not know about your church, But we have different people, who are not the same kind People who have one gift are not the same kind of people you would see with another gift. The HS knows what he is doing, because god has made us all induviduals, and gifted us each our own special way.

OMGosh . . . I can't believe this . . . a homosapien is a homosapien - a cow is a cow, an apple tree is an apple tree, etc. . . . AS 'OF THE SAME KIND' ALLOS . . . And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. . . . OF THE SAME KIND . . . homosapien - male/female - human being is after it's kind . . .

I know PEOPLE are different in their dispositions, their personalities but we are all the "same kind" - not one believer is different from another when it comes to manifesting the gift of holy spirit . . . God has given us all the gift of holy spirit - It is power from on high, it is the power God has given us to grow spiritually and he wants ALL his children to GROW into the image of his Son.

The whole problem is not distinguishing between "gifts" and "manifestations" . . . .

 

[notuptome]

I like the way the ESV is worded 1 Cor. 14:14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. 15 What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. . . He didn't say the praying is unfruitful - He said his mind (understanding) is unfruitful - just as it says in 1 Cor. 14:2

Actually the original text was all caps . . . the translators made the decision to keep the cap or not to keep the cap. Sometimes holy spirit is meaning the "gift" and then the Holy Spirit as in God . . .

Why would Paul encourage an activity that was not fruitful in the life of a believer?

Proverbs speaks often of the importance of knowledge, understanding and wisdom.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God is not responsible to make you speak in tongues. He does not possess people. Christians are responsible to -learn- what God has done for us in giving us the gift of the Holy Spirit and walk out on it.


We all have different gifts, but every Christian can operate the manifestations of the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Tongues are a manifestation, not a gift. Every Christian has the gift of the Holy Spirit, and can manifest that gift. God (through Paul) would like all Christians to speak in tongues (1 Cor 14:5). Every Christian is to "covet to prophesy" (1 Cor 14:39).

God does not have to force me to speak in tongues, I am open if needed to do whatever he wants.

And as I already proved, The manifestation of the spirit would be all gifts, and he only gave as he desires. The gift of tongues is just one of those gifts. he MAY give people. to manifest who he is.

I already gave you all the interpretation of what manifestation means, it means to make known, or to disclose, or to give revelation. Any one of the gifts manifest the HS is given to a person. one does not need all of them to make known the HS is who he is and they are empowered by him. I am not sure where this thought comes from. But it is not found in the passage.

And yes, He wants all to speak in tongues, Of course, if they all had the gift, Paul would not need to want all to speak. They woudl already do it, The people on pentecost spoke. They did not desire to speak, or will themselves to speak. they just spoke. Thats the way it should be.

 

[notuptome]

This is a specific voice gift - actually named diversities of tongues - operated in a worship meeting by a Spirit-filled
disciple who already is able to pray in tongues due to their baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Such a speaking in tongues in a meeting is then followed by interpretation.

If you are not Pentecost and do not operate the three voice gifts of the Holy Spirit in your worship/communion meetings
[in accordance with the instructions in 1Corinthians 14] then you know nothing, and I mean nothing, about how this
all works and what 1Corinthians 12 and 14 are all about.

The epistles are written to the Spirit-filled church not to Catholics, not to Protestants, not to Orthodox.

Your post is unbiblical and greatly lacking in truth. The church at Corinth was a church in need of correction. Paul had just instructed them in how they were abusing the communion and chapter 5 is about open fornication in their midst.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Except, as he pointed out, that is not what Corinthians says. It's very clear... to one person, this is given, to another person, this is given.... simple English and grammar.

Scripture clearly states that not every believer will manifest every gift. It is the complete reason for this whole passage, to show how we, as believers ALL have a role to play, and the roles are NOT the same. Just as a body has different parts, each with a specific role to play. If you lose a hand, you don't start picking things up with your ear. Different roles. Different manifestations.

And 1 cor12:29-30 is another witness to the verse we are talking about. The apostle says: Do all have the gift of healing, do all speak in tongues? etc, etc. The obvious answer is no. He has also previously asked: are all apostles? Again, the obvious answer is no.

In fact, ALL of chapter 12 needs to be read to get the mans full intent.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

God does not have to force me to speak in tongues, I am open if needed to do whatever he wants.

And as I already proved, The manifestation of the spirit would be all gifts, and he only gave as he desires. The gift of tongues is just one of those gifts. he MAY give people. to manifest who he is.

I already gave you all the interpretation of what manifestation means, it means to make known, or to disclose, or to give revelation. Any one of the gifts manifest the HS is given to a person. one does not need all of them to make known the HS is who he is and they are empowered by him. I am not sure where this thought comes from. But it is not found in the passage.

And yes, He wants all to speak in tongues, Of course, if they all had the gift, Paul would not need to want all to speak. They woudl already do it, The people on pentecost spoke. They did not desire to speak, or will themselves to speak. they just spoke. Thats the way it should be.

Another excellent post. You're on a roll.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

I just want to say that I am in no way saying that anyone who does not speak in tongues is not spirit filled. It is impossible to have the gift of holy spirit without the capacity to manifest it, because the manifestation are an integral part of the gift. 1 Corinthians 12:7 is set apart from verses 4-6 to help us understand that even though we have individual "gifts" from God, all believers can operate all nine manifestations. Of course, in the church, the Lord does not energize all the manifestations in every person at the same time because things would be confusion and not decent nor in order. I just think that it's pretty neat how precise God is in his word and how he used to different Greek words for "another" NOT to separate the believers which He just said "ALL" could manifest but to group the different manifestations . . . It is the Lord who distributes to every person, and at any given time He will energize spiritual gifts AND manifestations differently in different people, even though each person can manifest all nine manifestations. . . . God does not want us ignorant of spiritual matters.

 

[shrume]

God does not have to force me to speak in tongues, I am open if needed to do whatever he wants.

And as I already proved, The manifestation of the spirit would be all gifts, and he only gave as he desires. The gift of tongues is just one of those gifts. he MAY give people. to manifest who he is.

I already gave you all the interpretation of what manifestation means, it means to make known, or to disclose, or to give revelation. Any one of the gifts manifest the HS is given to a person. one does not need all of them to make known the HS is who he is and they are empowered by him. I am not sure where this thought comes from. But it is not found in the passage.

And yes, He wants all to speak in tongues, Of course, if they all had the gift, Paul would not need to want all to speak. They woudl already do it, The people on pentecost spoke. They did not desire to speak, or will themselves to speak. they just spoke. Thats the way it should be.

OK, EG. Your mind is made up. God bless!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

OMGosh . . . I can't believe this . . . a homosapien is a homosapien - a cow is a cow, an apple tree is an apple tree, etc. . . . AS 'OF THE SAME KIND' ALLOS . . . And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. . . . OF THE SAME KIND . . . homosapien - male/female - human being is after it's kind . . .

I know PEOPLE are different in their dispositions, their personalities but we are all the "same kind" - not one believer is different from another when it comes to manifesting the gift of holy spirit . . . God has given us all the gift of holy spirit - It is power from on high, it is the power God has given us to grow spiritually and he wants ALL his children to GROW into the image of his Son.

The whole problem is not distinguishing between "gifts" and "manifestations" . . . .

lol. Yes we are all people. You assume that is what his context is. I do not think it is,

We are not all just people. we are individually crafted, each with a different part. Christ is the head. the rest of us are induvidually different parts of the body, this we are all different.

 

[shrume]

Why would Paul encourage an activity that was not fruitful in the life of a believer?

He wouldn't.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Pb, I think it's great that you have healed people of sicknesses and effected great miracles. That I do not agree with you on some things does not take away from my happiness that you have been given to do these things!

 

[peacefulbeliever]

And 1 cor12:29-30 is another witness to the verse we are talking about. The apostle says: Do all have the gift of healing, do all speak in tongues? etc, etc. The obvious answer is no. He has also previously asked: are all apostles? Again, the obvious answer is no.

In fact, ALL of chapter 12 needs to be read to get the mans full intent.

This section of scripture blends the manifestations and the gift ministries and points out that not everyone will be energized in the same way at the same time that's why it says "Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers?" concerning the gift ministries which would be considered gifts because someone would be really good at spreading the gospel, another would be really good at teaching and that does have a lot to do with people's individual personalities and dispositions; Do all work miracles? do all have gifts of healing? do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?" concerning the manifestation of the Spirit - does God energize these manifestations in all believers at the same time NO . . . not everyone will be energized in the same way at the same time. Since the gift ministries and the manifestations are blended in this way, some people conclude that not everyone can speak in tongues or interpret but the thing is - these are manifestation of the spirit and God told us that the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man for the common good. These verses are summarizing all that has been said before - and DEFINITELY, scripture says that the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man for the common good. . . . God said it - therefore, I believe it. We cannot confuse "gifts" with "manifestation".