Can a person be born without a soul?

[AngelFrog]

I am looking at it from the viewpoint of the Bible, which is why I believe that a person is not born without a conscience.

Which also if they were born without a conscience they would of been a lot deadlier than being diagnosed without having a conscience later on, for they would of been out of control with terrible actions where they would of never made it to adulthood to be diagnosed not having a conscience, and would of been institutionalized as a wee child.

Unless like an illness their conscience got worse for in that part of the brain if it deteriorated more as time went on, like some people that say the person was so sweet at one time and we never would expect something like that from them, but then why were they so sweet at one time if they did not have a conscience that was operational at one time.

1.All people will be judged by God for their actions on earth whether good or bad, and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, and if they were born without a conscience then they would have an excuse for their sins and these people are not born like a vegetable where they are incoherent and non responding, but they are functioning and getting around.

2.We are not blamed for Adam and Eve's sin, and their sin does not come upon us for everybody will bear their own sins, but when they ate off the forbidden tree they then had a choice between good and evil, so that choice came upon all their offspring, which Eve is the mother of all living, so we are born not knowing God, so we will do wrong before we come to God in the truth.

So we are born innocent with no sin on our record until we know the wrong we do is wrong, which is why the Bible says the angels always behold the face of the Father for the little ones.

So there are some that never know they do wrong not having a conscience, but they did good while they were a child and knew it was good.

If they never knew they did wrong, and did not care, they would of never made it to adulthood to be free, for they would of bit the head off the cat, and stabbed the dog, and had no understanding of anything good, and would of had the demeanor of a crocodile, for that is the demeanor of someone that does not have a conscience, and how did they make it to adulthood being free without being put away as a child.

They would of been so unruly and would not be tame at all for they would only want to do bad, and why did they do good when they were a child, at least at one time.

If their conscience had a problem later in life I do not believe that they were born without a conscience, and some act that way because of trauma, and being neglected bad.

To me it does not seem like someone could be born without a conscience, but that would happen later in life, and some people are more evil than other people.

But I could be wrong, but was thinking it could not happen, because we are born innocent, and all people will be judged, so they would have an excuse for their sins, but maybe their brain did not develop right, or that part of the brain is missing.

What I can say is thank God I have a conscience and wish everybody did.

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

The new age movement, and people who interpret the Bible according to the occult, spiritual evolution through nature, and people can still evolve to be greater, and are waiting for the New Age Christ which they believe he will cause them to evolve through nature, and be greater, and be spiritual, and live forever.

The new age movement will develop in to a unified religious system where evolution is standard religion in the world, and will lead the people that do not love God to follow the beast kingdom, and will go against all people that oppose them and want them off the earth with great cruelty, and then God will end this sin business on earth.

It says some shall depart from the faith, and give heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

It says having their conscience seared with a hot iron, for they will not show the love of Christ, for they believe in order to have a world of peace they must get rid of all people who oppose them which is a very cruel and not humanistic thing to do.

These people will make Adolph Hitler, and any other political, or military leader that was cruel look like a toddler when they go against everybody that opposes their kingdom in the future.

But these people were not born without a conscience, but their conscience was seared with a hot iron by the choice they made to follow a false belief system that is cruel in the long run, although it says peace now, for they were in the faith and the love of Christ, at least somewhat, but fell victim to following the Bible according to the interpretation of the new age movement, and Lucifer is the helper of this world, and not against the world as the Bible says, but they say it is a wrong interpretation, for he did not fall in to disgrace and sin, but he descended to Earth from Venus eons ago to bring the principle of mind to the then animal-man, and will come in the future to help mankind to evolve to be spiritual, which the New Age Christ will be the final teacher in the evolutionary process.

So people can be born with a conscience but by bad choices can develop a strange personality to where they can be cruel to people, and some people are more evil than others, but all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Also if a person does have a cruel tendency the devil can influence them more making it worse, but that does not mean they were born without a conscience.

The Bible says that Jesus lights every person that comes in this world, so everybody has the ability to see the light of Jesus and be saved, but if some people are born without a conscience then how can this be possible, for that would mean that not all people can see the light of Jesus.

But I could be wrong, but I am basing it upon the Bible why I do not believe people can be born without a conscience.

It does not make sense to me how someone can be born without a conscience, although some can be more evil than others, and have a fascination with evil at an early age and it gets worse through time.

Even Hitler as cruel as he was still cared for the welfare of his own people, and people that went along with his agenda.

Hitler may be long dead but his beloved Reich will likely live the 1000 years he dreamed for the fact of those who invoke his name in on-line discussions. Even where it has no place at all.

Let's look at no Conscience from a Biblical perspective then.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 [EHV]
The Spirit clearly says that, in later times, some will fall away from the faith, because they devote themselves to deceitful spirits and the doctrines of demons, 2 in connection with the hypocrisy of liars, whose own consciences have been seared.

Cpmscoemces G2743 καυτηριάζω
https://studybible.info/strongs/G2743
...Thayer
3) in a medical sense, to cauterise, remover by cautery

 

[trofimus]

Hitler may be long dead but his beloved Reich will likely live the 1000 years he dreamed for the fact of those who invoke his name in on-line discussions. Even where it has no place at all.

Let's look at no Conscience from a Biblical perspective then.

1 Timothy 4:1-2 [EHV]
The Spirit clearly says that, in later times, some will fall away from the faith, because they devote themselves to deceitful spirits and the doctrines of demons, 2 in connection with the hypocrisy of liars, whose own consciences have been seared.

Cpmscoemces G2743 καυτηριάζω
https://studybible.info/strongs/G2743
...Thayer
3) in a medical sense, to cauterise, remover by cautery

This translation is not very good, IMHO. It totally ignores a continuous time of the Greek verb.

ἐν ὑποκρίσει ψευδολόγων, κεκαυστηριασμένων τὴν ἰδίαν συνείδησιν

"lying in a hypocrisy, searing their own conscience"

Iam surprised that almost none English translation reflects this properly (I checked on biblehub.com), regarding the fact that English has plenty of tenses to use. Only the KJV is quite close. Other translations are saying that its done, it is not, its a continuous action.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

That is not true. That's what a Conscience bestows in a person. There are people who have been proven, through brain mapping we know where the Conscience center is in the human brain, to not have that area of their brain activated.

To me, this means that the conscience is present (i.e. the person was born with a "conscience") but the conscience is not "active". Could this be what is referred to in Scripture as having their conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Tim 4:2)? It's not that the conscience does not exist or was never present ... it's that the conscience is "seared" (cauterized)?

It doesn't fire. the synapses that activate the Conscience to behave as that which produces in the individual love, remorse, compassion, an innate understanding of right from wrong, is not there.

Serial killers on death row participated in the studies in some cases where this type of brain mapping experiment was being done. Without fail each participant, serial killer, was without Conscience. That area of the brain was dark. Atrophied, meaning shrunken, not active. These are also what is commonly labeled, "Psychopath".

Here again it appears the conscience is "present", it's just not active. To me, when a muscle atrophies, the muscle is still present, it is just weak. Sometimes muscles atrophy to the point of not being able to function and sustain the body in the manner intended by God.

Also, these studies / brain mapping of serial killers ... was there anything to compare the current study with? I mean, these studies were performed on those whose conscience had already "atrophied". Was a similar study / brain mapping done on the same person in infancy / young childhood to show that the area of the brain was "dark" or "atrophied" from birth?

Just my musings on this issue ...

 

[calibob]

You apparently had a bad luck about churches. Divorce is not adultery, sex with another woman than your wife is adultery. But its another topic.

Of course, there is one truth about the afterlife and details about it. But we have several possibilities and we cannot verify which one is correct or if its some mixture of multiple options.

But it does not matter so much. We know we will be with the Lord. The question "what is the status of unbelievers until they are resurrected and punished" actually does not influence destiny of believers.

Thank you, of course I know what adultery is but being branded as one unjustly because of narrow minded dogma didn't make me feel guilty, because I wasn't, just made me angry at the church as a whole. I didn't turn my back on the Lord but the church is a different matter.

Many people would have blamed God and given up, only mentioned it to to bring light upon the paradoxes many of us face trying to be good Christians. The reason I brought all of those churches is to highlight that there seems to be no concensus of what teaching is correct. We seem to be doing at such a good job at factioning ourselves I bet Lucifer has a good laugh watching Christian T.V. I was lucky, I read the Bible before I put any faith in any recognized,organized faith per say. I have faith in the word period! Many lack the ability to rightly divide the word of faith and follow blindly what they are told. That is a travesty, worse considering many more others just give up thinking its all a pack of lies and I fear that many that would be saved will wind up in hell. It also highlights part of the spiritual crisis world wide. That's what I am angry about.

Back to the original topic; I know that many are neglected, starved, beaten, sodmized and things I dare not mention from infancy which destroys their ability to be normal, functioning human beings; in common english, not bible speak, having a vacum where what non chiristians call the soul, (like many people call their wife or lover soul mate).

Apart from the atrocities I've mentioned are there or can there be people who are just born that way. Almost doomed to go to Hell from before they they came from the womb? That was a long, round about way to get to the point I thought the question was easier than the answer. That took longer than I expected. don't rusg to answer as my legs hurt from sitting too long.

P.S' my ex wife was bi-polar and was refered to Christian Marriage Counselor that if she is not married happily, she is living in sin and God dosn't want that so go ahead and get divorced and ask for forgiveness so she could move on with life. I later found out the counselor was divorced. Kind of like Trump giving marital or financial advice, don't be offended that was a joke, sort of.

Have a blessed day,...calibob

 

[calibob]

That is not true. That's what a Conscience bestows in a person. There are people who have been proven, through brain mapping we know where the Conscience center is in the human brain, to not have that area of their brain activated. It doesn't fire. the synapses that activate the Conscience to behave as that which produces in the individual love, remorse, compassion, an innate understanding of right from wrong, is not there.

Serial killers on death row participated in the studies in some cases where this type of brain mapping experiment was being done. Without fail each participant, serial killer, was without Conscience. That area of the brain was dark. Atrophied, meaning shrunken, not active. These are also what is commonly labeled, "Psychopath".
https://www.google.com/search?q=ser...rome..69i57.7335j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Etymology of Psychopath - https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=psychopath&source=ds_search

I understand that part, the crux of the question is, are they born that way?

 

[trofimus]

Back to the original topic; I know that many are neglected, starved, beaten, sodmized and things I dare not mention from infancy which destroys their ability to be normal, functioning human beings; in common english, not bible speak, having a vacum where what non chiristians call the soul, (like many people call their wife or lover soul mate).

Hm OK, its just some English cultural thing then, we do not speak like that in our country. When we want to describe such a person we say that he is without a character or heartless or mentally ill, immoral etc, depending on context.

So when you asked about soul, I understood it differently, in a theological way.

 

[Ugly]

YOU are the smartest person in the room so far. Antisocial personality disorder; "Their is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years..." DSMIV TR, 2000, 2006 pg 291 I'm surprised I had to rephrase the question so much. It showed me how divided we are as Christians over the definition of soul; "noun, "the part of you that is not your body, and that some people think does not die with your body. the spirit of a person." A Student's Dictionary 20th edition 2012. It is not considered a disability or mental illness because who have do the horrible things that they do willfully without shame guilt or repentance. I asked because the American Psychiatric Assn. Does not validate a diagnosis such as this younger than age 15. I call them crazy, broken or soulless creatures. but what I was curious about were some of them born that way or are they/were they all victims at some point, of abuse, neglect etc. If they were born that are they beyond salvation, from birth? Are they even human (and I don't need a biology lesson either, I know what a human is according to text books everyone.)

It was explained to me once that humans like god are triune beings body, spirit, and soul so if they have no soul (in the common definition) are they some how less than human? (as in the triune definition)

I'm sorry if I ruffled any feathers it was my mistake for thinking everyone would understand what I meant but I have forgotten that have different meanings to different meanings to different people. good morning everyone....calibob

My understanding the terms Psychopath and Sociopath are not official terms used during diagnosis.
Psychopaths are born, socioaths are created.
The official modern DSM labels it Borderline Personality Disorder.
I've yet to grasp why so many Christians accept physical sickness as a physical problem, yet deny mental illness, a physical problem with the physical brain.
It reminds me of the story about the man who was well known and well liked, who was a construction worker, and was in an accident that sent a metal pole through his head. He went from a friendly man to a foul mouthed jerk everyone despised after the injury.

 

[AngelFrog]

I understand that part, the crux of the question is, are they born that way?

Yes.

 

[AngelFrog]

To me, this means that the conscience is present (i.e. the person was born with a "conscience") but the conscience is not "active". Could this be what is referred to in Scripture as having their conscience seared with a hot iron (1 Tim 4:2)? It's not that the conscience does not exist or was never present ... it's that the conscience is "seared" (cauterized)?

That's what the Greek Lexicon relates, yes.
Cpmscoemces G2743 καυτηριάζω
https://studybible.info/strongs/G2743
...Thayer
3) in a medical sense, to cauterise, remover by cautery

Here again it appears the conscience is "present", it's just not active. To me, when a muscle atrophies, the muscle is still present, it is just weak. Sometimes muscles atrophy to the point of not being able to function and sustain the body in the manner intended by God.

Also, these studies / brain mapping of serial killers ... was there anything to compare the current study with? I mean, these studies were performed on those whose conscience had already "atrophied". Was a similar study / brain mapping done on the same person in infancy / young childhood to show that the area of the brain was "dark" or "atrophied" from birth?

Just my musings on this issue ...

We have to recall also I think that in Biblical times people did not know about the centers of the brain and those that control different aspects of human personality and behavior. When something is cauterized, it is shut down, burned out, stopped from existing as it was. I think the best way to relate to people of the ancient age the truth of being born without a conscience was through that which the people could identify with or relate to in their real world experience.

Today PET scans, MRI's, show that the center of the brain that holds Conscience, that area in the frontal cortex, is dead. Dark, on the scans, meaning there is no activity, no electricity firing the synapses so as to activate the "fruits" if you will, that God bestows there.

There was a man who was a hitman for the mob. He was known as the Iceman, his given name was Richard Kuklinski . He had no conscience. His evil behaviors started when he was a child. He was compelled to act evil and as with all serial killers, of which he was one, he just worked for the mob, he began his evil by torturing and killing animals.
He ended up suffering a horrible death in prison after it was found out that contrary to when he first arrived, he was going to turn states evidence on the mob.
He was a family man, with kids. His family never knew.

I always figure if someone has no conscience there has to be a feeling that people with one get from them when they're near. Something that God compels in that person who has a conscience and that tells them , get away. Don't trust them. Run! Bad news. Something. Because that is the great part of a persons social persona, conscience. When that is not active I'd think we could feel that deficit somehow when we're near such a person. Or talking to them. Something maybe in the eyes.

There was a documentary on Kuklinski that I watched. I always look into peoples eyes when we're speaking. Even watching movies, I look to the actors eyes to sell me the character they're playing. To help me suspend disbelief for those hours I'm watching their movie.

With Kuklinski his eyes were like a reptiles. Cold, calculating, stone. Only I'd trust a reptile more than I would have trusted being around Richard Kuklinski.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

We have to recall also I think that in Biblical times people did not know about the centers of the brain and those that control different aspects of human personality and behavior. When something is cauterized, it is shut down, burned out, stopped from existing as it was. I think the best way to relate to people of the ancient age the truth of being born without a conscience was through that which the people could identify with or relate to in their real world experience.

The Author of the Bible is God. His knowledge of the brain and how it works far surpasses what we in our day and time know about the centers of the brain.

I believe all people are born with a conscience and something goes horribly wrong with the conscience in those who end up with sociopathic tendencies. Resisting every attempt by God to have a relationship results in the conscience being seared by a hot iron. And I believe it is easier for those who have absolutely no exposure to the Word of God to slip into this state. And times that by generational neglect of the Word of God. It is much easier to manipulate people when there is no Word of God viewed, written, spoken, etc. That is why our adversary (the devil) is hard at work ... removing any and all Scripture from public view.

On the other hand, those who do not resist — God works in their hearts. He strengthens their faith. Our Lord Jesus Christ purges our conscience; our hearts are purified from an evil conscience (Heb 9:14, 10:22).

Today PET scans, MRI's, show that the center of the brain that holds Conscience, that area in the frontal cortex, is dead. Dark, on the scans, meaning there is no activity, no electricity firing the synapses so as to activate the "fruits" if you will, that God bestows there.

I understand there is no activity, no electricity firing the synapses so as to activate the "fruits" God bestows there.

I just do not believe people are born that way. If they are born that way, then God cannot judge them. They have an excuse when they stand before God come judgment day. They did exactly what they were "born" to do so God cannot cast them into the lake of fire.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I always figure if someone has no conscience there has to be a feeling that people with one get from them when they're near. Something that God compels in that person who has a conscience and that tells them , get away. Don't trust them. Run! Bad news. Something. Because that is the great part of a persons social persona, conscience. When that is not active I'd think we could feel that deficit somehow when we're near such a person. Or talking to them. Something maybe in the eyes.

In the mid 1990s, I worked with this lady for about a year. She and I kept in touch and I considered her to be my friend. I also thought she was a believer as we had discussed Scripture over the years. She contacted me and asked for prayer and help.

We worked again together for another employer for about 4 years (from 2009 - 2013). She behaved very poorly. She lied. She stole time from the company by taking long breaks and worked on personal projects while she was at work.

I did not go along with her and she turned vicious toward me.

After I left that job (I was laid off during an economic downturn), I questioned my ability to judge character. I wondered if my friend was always like that and I just didn't see it ... or had something happened to her in the 15 years we did not work together that caused her to end up in a really bad place.

I still don't have the answer to that question ... just something to ask God about when I see Him face to face (although I'm not sure I'll even remember at that point ...)

 

[maxwel]

In the mid 1990s, I worked with this lady for about a year. She and I kept in touch and I considered her to be my friend. I also thought she was a believer as we had discussed Scripture over the years. She contacted me and asked for prayer and help.

We worked again together for another employer for about 4 years (from 2009 - 2013). She behaved very poorly. She lied. She stole time from the company by taking long breaks and worked on personal projects while she was at work.

I did not go along with her and she turned vicious toward me.

After I left that job (I was laid off during an economic downturn), I questioned my ability to judge character. I wondered if my friend was always like that and I just didn't see it ... or had something happened to her in the 15 years we did not work together that caused her to end up in a really bad place.

I still don't have the answer to that question ... just something to ask God about when I see Him face to face (although I'm not sure I'll even remember at that point ...)

"I wondered if my friend was always like that and I just didn't see it ... or had something happened to her..."


People can change.
The reason it's so dangerous for us to delve into sin is because it can get progressively worse.
God wants us to mature in Christ, and get progressively better... but many lost people get progressively worse.

The moral to the story is: don't feel like you're a bad judge of character; people change.

------------

 

[joefizz]

We are not "with" a soul. We are souls.

Hmmm then why in Genesis is it stated...
Genesis Chp.2 verse 7 (KJV)
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life; and man became a living soul.
(note the phrase "living soul" which refers to that a "soul" once given form to reside in"lives" if the body is without a soul it can't live just as the soul can't actually be "living" without a form to be in)
One has to consider "context" and "definition" soul can refer to a "person" but it also refers to what keeps us "living" and what can be "saved" one's body "can't be saved", but one's "soul" the essence that makes up everything that is not "fleshly" it can be "saved" and eventually "given a permanent new body" that is not "fleshly".

 

[reneweddaybyday]

"I wondered if my friend was always like that and I just didn't see it ... or had something happened to her..."


People can change.
The reason it's so dangerous for us to delve into sin is because it can get progressively worse.
God wants us to mature in Christ, and get progressively better... but many lost people get progressively worse.

The moral to the story is: don't feel like you're a bad judge of character; people change.

Yeah, I understand that. It's just that if she did change from when I knew her in the '90s, the change was so drastic as to be a complete turnaround.

Gotta wonder if she was just not "good soil" when I witnessed to her. Maybe "stony ground" or "thorny ground". Sad really ...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Hmmm then why in Genesis is it stated...
Genesis Chp.2 verse 7 (KJV)
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life; and man became a living soul.
(note the phrase "living soul" which refers to that a "soul" once given form to reside in"lives" if the body is without a soul it can't live just as the soul can't actually be "living" without a form to be in)
One has to consider "context" and "definition" soul can refer to a "person" but it also refers to what keeps us "living" and what can be "saved" one's body "can't be saved", but one's "soul" the essence that makes up everything that is not "fleshly" it can be "saved" and eventually "given a permanent new body" that is not "fleshly".

I figure the soul enlivens body ... and when a person is born again, that Holy Spirit he/she receives is what gives life to the soul.

If a person is not born again, the conscience is a guide, but is easily overwhelmed by the lusts of the flesh and/or the emotions.

Once a person is born again, the Holy Spirit within is much more effective at helping to overcome the lusts and emotions.

 

[joefizz]

I figure the soul enlivens body ... and when a person is born again, that Holy Spirit he/she receives is what gives life to the soul.

If a person is not born again, the conscience is a guide, but is easily overwhelmed by the lusts of the flesh and/or the emotions.

Once a person is born again, the Holy Spirit within is much more effective at helping to overcome the lusts and emotions.

Very well put.

 

[Silverwings]

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

 

[trofimus]

Hmmm then why in Genesis is it stated...
Genesis Chp.2 verse 7 (KJV)
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breathe of life; and man became a living soul.
(note the phrase "living soul" which refers to that a "soul" once given form to reside in"lives" if the body is without a soul it can't live just as the soul can't actually be "living" without a form to be in)
One has to consider "context" and "definition" soul can refer to a "person" but it also refers to what keeps us "living" and what can be "saved" one's body "can't be saved", but one's "soul" the essence that makes up everything that is not "fleshly" it can be "saved" and eventually "given a permanent new body" that is not "fleshly".

Your verse says two things:

1) a body from the earth + a spirit/breath from God = a living soul.

2) man became a soul, he did not get a soul.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Your verse says two things:

1) a body from the earth + a spirit/breath from God = a living soul.

2) man became a soul, he did not get a soul.

According to 1 Thessalonians, mankind consists of spirit, soul, body:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In Isaiah, God states He created, formed, and made mankind:

Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

God created man in His own image and likeness = spirit (Gen 1:26,27).

God formed man from the dust of the ground = body (Gen 2:7).

God breathed soul life into man = soul (Gen 2:7).

 

[tourist]

It seems two days ago there was a controversial topics forum and I think that's where this topic should belong, nonetheless here goes.

Since creation, people have ghastly, gruesome, things without reason or remorse. Could it be be that they simply don't have a soul?
What do you think? I sure don't know It's now an open question....... calibob

Everyone has a soul but there are those that have no conscience or shame in how they conduct their lives and are indifferent or take pleasure in the pain that they cause to others.

On this site there are not really any controversial topics as there will be no shortage of members that take an opposing contrary view or perception to your own. This is not necessarily a bad thing but just the way that it is.