A place for rapture questions

[DiscipleDave]

Coz heaven means the hearts of believers right here on earth- the 144k believers.
Jesus instructed us to pray like this:

Our father,
Who at in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name,
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done on earth as it is heaven....



If he meant otherwise the prayer should change to something like,
"..may we fly off to heaven, may your will be done in heaven differently from what we experienced on earth..."

This is TRUE. Right now Jesus is in Heaven, the Holy City is in Heaven, the Father is in Heaven. RIGHT NOW. But when Jesus comes to the Earth to gather up the Church to Himself. Jesus comes out of Heaven, the Father comes out of Heaven, the Holy City comes out of Heaven. They all come to the Earth. The Holy City comes out of Heaven to the Earth. The Father is in the Holy City. Notice the part in the prayer that says "Thy Kingdom Come" That is because one day it will come to the Earth. The Father, Jesus, the Holy City will call come to the Earth, the Kingdom of God will come to Earth.
Where ever the Father dwells or the Son of that Father dwells is where Heaven is. The Father, the Son, and the Holy City, Bride of the Son, all come to Earth. Heaven on Earth, thy Kingdom shall indeed come to the Earth. All this takes place on that Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Great for the Saints, Terrible for those left behind.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

We will be "caught up" to be where the LORD IS.....

a. Caught UP to where
b. Where is the LORD

In the SKY <----HE comes with the clouds and great glory!

Amen, and the Holy City which reach into the sky for sure.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Actually, New Jerusalem will be on the new earth, not this current one. AFTER the millennial rule, which does occur on this present earth.

1. We are caught up into heaven for the marriage supper
2. We return with Christ to this earth for 1,000 years
3. We are gathered again at the end of the millennium
4. This creation is destroyed
5. A new heaven and earth are created, and New Jerusalem is established on that new earth
6. We inhabit the new earth, but not all of us will live in New Jerusalem. Most will live in nations outside New Jerusalem

The error here is in your thinking that the New Earth is at the end of the 1,000 years. This is not so.

People the 7 year Tribulation Period that is coming upon the Earth is the process of Making the New Heaven and the New Earth. Read the sounding of the Trumpets and the vials being poured out. All grass is burnt up, 1/3 of the Trees are burned. no more oceans, No more mountains (Save four around Jerusalem) no more islands, Earth totally different, NEW. When the 7 trumpets and 7 vials are completed our atmosphere and Earth will indeed be brand NEW, this all takes place PRIOR to the 1,000 years.

Where do you think the Saints reign with Christ at during the 1,000 years? Out of the Holy City ON EARTH. During the 7th Trumpet sounding is when the Rapture takes place, is when the Saints are raised, the dead first and then the living, all on that same day, that day is when the Holy City comes down out of Heaven, that day is when Jesus sets up His Kingdom on Earth. That day we start to reign with Jesus over the entire Earth, and we do all that out of the Holy City New Jerusalem. On that Day the Saints attend the Marriage Supper of the Lord in the Holy City that will be on the Earth. ON that Day every nations in the world will know that God dwells in Jerusalem. And according to Zechariah 14 Jesus will cause all nations of the Earth to come up to worship Him at Jerusalem from year to year, and if they will not come up an worship Him, He will punish those nations that do not come up to worship Him. All Nations will come to worship on the outskirts of the Holy City Jerusalem which rests on four mountains. They will not be allowed in the Great Valley under the Holy City, but they can worship on the suburbs of the Holy City from year to year.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

You mean you want to see the word "heaven" otherwise you won't believe it?

1 Thess 4:17 should suffice for any Christian (other than skeptics), but let me show you what you want to see.

And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold,there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (2 Kings 2:11).

So if Elijah went up to Heaven, and the New Jerusalem is in Heaven, what makes you think Christians will not go to Heaven?

You do understand there are three Heavens, correct?

2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the THIRD heaven.

So there must be a first and second heaven in order to have a third heaven.

Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

Gen 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

So we plainly see by these Scriptures that our atmosphere is called heaven. (the first Heaven, Space being the 2nd Heaven, and Where the Father is, is the 3rd Heaven.)

So when Elijah was taken up to Heaven, you are only assuming it was the third Heaven that he was taken to, when it is equally TRUE that he could have been taken up to our atmosphere. Which indeed is the case, because Scriptures do not lie, and no man has ascended up to the third Heaven except Jesus Christ.

Even the fact that Scriptures plainly teaches that a whirlwind took him up, indicates that it took place in our atmosphere where whirlwinds are common. Does a whirlwind travel though space?

Right now the New Jerusalem is in Heaven, it is going to come out of the third Heaven and reside in our heaven, that is to say our atmosphere. Jesus is coming in the clouds, in our atmosphere. We will go to be with Him where He is, and He is in our atmosphere, in the Holy City Jerusalem, where we will be with Him also. All this takes place ON EARTH.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

1 Thes 4:13Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

For starters

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall DESCEND from heaven (the 3rd Heaven) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God (the 7th Trumpet sounding): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (on that Day) 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them (on that same day) in the CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (We will be forever with the Lord in the Clouds, in the air. OUR ATMOSPHERE. The Holy City will be a sky rise in our atmosphere, where the Father is, where Jesus is, where we Saints will be forever.)

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Joseppi]

No. The doctrine of the Rapture is NOT Satanic, therefore your attack on the Rapture is Satanic. "Sensual desire" and "carnal people" is also an attack on Christians who are children of God.

Where is your defense of the false doctrine of a secret rapture of the church?

 

[Joseppi]

Just two general resurrections. One for the righteous, and the other for the unrighteous.

However the "first resurrection" has three phases, and the middle phase is the general resurrection of the saints.

The resurrection of Christ was "phase I" and the resurrection of the Tribulation Saints will be "phase III."

Note that Nehemiah6 continues to make up reasons why scripture doesn’t say what he claims it ought to say.

There are no phases of resurrection.
God know how to rightly divide and he counts out two resurrections.
And neither of the two are secret resurrections that contradict what Jesus said concerning secret arrivals of Jesus.

How plain a speech do you readers require for understanding?

Jesus said

Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
Matthew 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.


Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Now Nehemiah's teaching is plainly false and opposes what Jesus taught about his coming.
There is no secret coming of Jesus folks to save special Christians in disregard of others.
We are one body of Christ.

 

[Joseppi]

But the New Jerusalem is a city and it is in Heaven. And since God, Christ, all the holy angels, and all the saints who have passed on are in the New Jerusalem (Heb 12:22-24), you could say that the New Jerusalem is interchangeable with Heaven.[/b]
I showed you that your book of Hebrews quote has the wrong tense to be agreeable to what you said.
And you over simplified the concept of Heaven so as to make your comments agree with the secret rapture doctrine.

Furthermore, your statement about Elijah not being in Heaven -- in spite of the fact that Scripture says that he was taken to Heaven -- means that you are prepared to twist Scripture to suit your own ideas. That is a serious offence.

You wish me to be an offense to God so you can continue to spread the false doctrine of the secret rapture unchallenged?

It’s the scripture that corrects your false doctrine. No twisting involved.

It’s real simple, I said no one knows where Elijah went.

But regardless, where Elijah went isn’t related to the false doctrine of the secret rapture of the church.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Hello Wall,

Jesus said the following to His disciples and therefore to all believers:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

In the scripture above, Jesus told His disciples that His Father's house has many rooms and that He was going there to prepare places for believers. Then He said that he would come back to take us to be with Him so that we can be where He is, which would of course be to the Father's house, which can only be referring to heaven. Therefore, Jesus is going to return and take us to the Father's house which is in heaven.

That is your opinion. your statement "which can only be referring to Heaven, is inaccurate. Yes we are going to live with the Father in the Father's house, but you are assuming that the Father's house will always be in Heaven. Revelations 21 plainly teaches the Father's House comes down to the Earth does it not? You have it in your head that the Father's house comes down AFTER the 1,000 year reign of Christ on Earth, which thing is NOT in Scriptures. Yes we are going to live in the Father's House, And it will come down to the Earth at the 7th Trumpet sounding. That is when Jesus will set up His Kingdom on Earth and we Saints will rule with Jesus ON EARTH. Still waiting for you to explain Zechariah chapter 14 verse by verse, because Zechariahs prophecies contradicts most of what you teach concerning the timing of the Holy City coming down to Earth.

Rev_20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

We reign with Christ a thousand years, tell me where do you think we live when we reign with Christ a thousand years?

Isa_24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

So Jesus Reigns in Mount Zion. Are you seeing this?

Jer_23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jesus shall reign and execute judgement and justice, where? in the EARTH.

Mic_4:7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Where does Jesus reign over them? Out of Mount Zion, which is where? ON EARTH.

Rom_15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

Has Jesus reigned over the Gentiles? No, not yet but He will, where? Out of the Holy City New Jerusalem.

1Co_15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

That Holy inspired by God verse plainly teaches that Jesus must reign until all enemies are put under His feet. So He must reign during a time when His enemies are still present, yes? Yes.

Rev_5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

WHAT? We reign with Jesus ON EARTH? Yes that is what i teach and what God told me, and Scriptures plainly teach too.

Rev_11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

We shall reign with Him for ever and ever where? Scriptures says we will be with Him for ever and ever in the clouds in the air. This makes perfect since, because the Holy City is in the clouds, is in the air.

Talking about the Holy City we have this verse:

Rev_22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

Again, Scriptures teach we reign with Jesus for ever and ever OUT OF THE HOLY CITY JERUSALEM, which will be ON EARTH.

I Thessalonians 4:13-18 is a detailed account of the promise John 14:1-3, where the Lord comes down to the atmosphere and the dead in Christ are resurrected, with the living being transformed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. At that point the entire church will be assembled, where the Lord will then take the entire group back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us.

This is True, However you think the Father's House at that time is still in Heaven, that is NOT TRUE. Tell me if it is written that we will forever be with Jesus in the clouds and in the air, How are you saying we will be with Him in Heaven? Can we be with Jesus in our clouds and air for ever and also be in Heaven at the same time? Do you not see your logic is not lining up? If Scriptures teach we will be with Jesus in the clouds and air for ever and ever, and we also know we will be with Jesus in the Holy City for ever and ever, why can't you seem to put two and two together and realize that the Holy City is going to be in our clouds and air, for ever and ever?

We also know that the church is in heaven because in Rev.19:6-8, the bride, which is another designation for the church, is seen at the wedding of the Lamb receiving her fine linen.

Again, your not understanding where the Bride is? You are assuming the Bride is in Heaven, when in Truth the Bride comes with Jesus at His Second Coming to the Earth when He Returns and is here to Stay and sets up His Kingdom ON EARTH. The Holy City Jerusalem is His Bride. When Jesus raptures the Church we will immediatly participate is the marriage Supper of the Lord, the Marriage of Jesus and His Bride the Holy City Jerusalem, which is ON EARTH, when is where we go to live, which is where we reign with Christ out of, over the whole Earth.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Then in Rev.19:14, we see the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven wearing that same fine linen and riding on white horses, as we follow the Lord out of heaven to the earth to end the age.

True, this event takes place at the 7th Trumpet when Christ Returns to Earth second time, with His Bride, to set up His Kingdom ON EARTH. At the 7th Trumpet sounding all the kingdoms of the world become the Kingdom of Jesus Christ. If those nations will not come up and worship Him, He will punish them. Still waiting for you to explain Zechariah chapter 14 to me verse by verse. Why i keep asking you to do that, is because you can't do so, because Zechariah 14 in no way whatsoever lines up with what you teach, it does not line up with what you say is going to happen based on YOUR own interpretations. Zechariah 14, that major prophet, is contrary to what you teach. Tell me as a Christian should i believe Zechariah which tells of the Holy City being here on Earth during a time when Heathens are still present on the Earth, or believe you which teach the Holy City comes after all sinners are judged and cast into Hell for all eternity? Do you not teach that the Holy City comes AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment when all the evil and wicked are cast into Hell? yes you do teach that. Yet the Prophet Zechariah teaches when Jesus reigns from the Holy City there are heathens present. Isaiah is another prophet who teaches during the days of the New Heaven and New Earth that sinners are still present, again something that is contrary to what you teach is it not?

In conclusion, once the church has been completed, the Lord will descend to the atmosphere and the dead and living in Christ will be caught up and changed in the twinkling of an eye. And then according to John 14:1-3, He will take us all back to those places that He prepared for us which is in the Father's house,

All this TRUE, and then you say this?

which is in heaven.

Now if your talking about the 1st Heaven, which is our atmosphere where clouds are and where our air is, then you would be correct, but if your referring the 3rd Heaven then you would not be correct in that opinion.

Understanding this is just a matter of cross-referencing and comparing scripture.

If you are teaching that it is in 3rd Heaven, then no amount of cross-referencing and comparing Scriptures will confirm that. Why? because that is your opinion, not what any Scriptures teach.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Ahwatukee]

For those of you who think we go to heaven at the rapture event...

JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

What do you do with scripture above?

Greetings Wall,

In the scripture above, Jesus is basically saying that no man has died and resurrected in his immortal and glorified body except for the One who originally came down from heaven, Jesus Christ, the first fruits of the first resurrection.

 

[Ahwatukee]

JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I GO UNTO HIM THAT SENT ME.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

Heres another scripture you must claim is contrary to your rapture belief and thus cant be true. I go to Him that sent me. To the Father. Heaven. Jesus said we cant go there

Hello again Wall,

You have to remember that, Jesus is speaking to His disciples telling that they couldn't go with Him at that time, not period. After all, the disciples had a job to do which was to preach the gospel and build the church. They certainly couldn't do that if they were removed from the earth at that time, but would follow later, as can be seen from following:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Little children, I am with you only a little while longer. You will look for Me, and as I said to the Jews, so now I say to you: ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’

"Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked. Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.” - John 13:36

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have to cross-reference and compare all scripture in order to come to a right conclusion. As can you see in the scripture above, Jesus says "you can't follow Me now," but then He says, "but you will follow me later." Therefore, just because something is said, there can also be exceptions to that. That's why it is important to know everything that is said regarding any given Biblical subject.

Therefore, the scripture that you quoted above and in light of John 13:36, does not negate the promise of the gathering off the church.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Again you present your own kind of reasoning as if it’s specious.

The reference to Jesus going to the "Father's house" to prepare places for believers, is sufficient as identifying it as being heaven. Once the church has been completed, the Lord will come back and take all true believers to the Father's house to those places that Jesus went to prepare for us, that where He is, we may be also.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Heaven isn’t a city.

Yes, but the new Jerusalem which is a city, is in heaven and which will also come down out of heaven.

 

[Wall]

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period. So how in the wide wide world of sports can someone claim 1Thes.4 takes place 7 years prior to the Day of the Lord?

 

[Wall]

Really alls ya gotta do is keep reading the so called rapture scripture

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1 THES. 5 [1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that THE DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then SUDDEN DESTRUCTION cometh upon them, as travail upon a WOMAN WITH CHILD; and they shall not escape.

Doesn’t [1Thes.5] explain to us that [1Thes.4] takes place on The Day of the Lord? There is no scriptural gap between the above scriptures. 1Thes.5 directly follows 1Thes.4 verse 18. There were no chapters and verses when 1Thes was written. It clearly says that the goins on of 1Thes.4 takes place on the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord takes place after the tribulatuion.

Thes. scriptures---women with child—V.16 resurrection---sudden destruction—Day of the Lord
Isaiah26-----------women with child----V.19 resurrection---punish earthlings-----Day of the Lord

ISAIAH 26 [17] Like as a WOMAN WITH CHILD, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, UNTIL THE INDIGNATION BE OVERPAST. [21] For, behold, THE LORD COMETH OUT OF HIS PLACE TO PUNISH THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH FOR THEIR INIQUITY: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Yeah. Verses 20-21. Surely the Day of the Lord

 

[garee]

Hello again Wall,

You have to remember that, Jesus is speaking to His disciples telling that they couldn't go with Him at that time, not period. After all, the disciples had a job to do which was to preach the gospel and build the church. They certainly couldn't do that if they were removed from the earth at that time, but would follow later, as can be seen from following:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Little children, I am with you only a little while longer. You will look for Me, and as I said to the Jews, so now I say to you: ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’

"Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked. Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.” - John 13:36

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have to cross-reference and compare all scripture in order to come to a right conclusion. As can you see in the scripture above, Jesus says "you can't follow Me now," but then He says, "but you will follow me later." Therefore, just because something is said, there can also be exceptions to that. That's why it is important to know everything that is said regarding any given Biblical subject.

Therefore, the scripture that you quoted above and in light of John 13:36, does not negate the promise of the gathering off the church.

Yes follow in there new born spirits( dead asleep) . Their bodies of death (not suspended animation )return to the lifeless spiritless dust it is was formed from .

Flesh and blood cannot(impossible) enter the new heavenly Jerusalem, the place of many Mansions ... prepared as the bride of Christ, the church. Made up of Jew and Gentile male and female.

 

[Wall]

Therefore, the scripture that you quoted above and in light of John 13:36, does not negate the promise of the gathering off the church.

Good day Ahwatukee,

There will be a gathering of His church

MATTHEW [24] But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

EZEK. 34 [12] As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in THE CLOUDY AND DARK DAY. [13] And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will BRING THEM TO THEIR OWN LAND, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Thing is...when He does gather the church he brings them to the earthly kingdom in Israel. Not heaven

PS- The dark and cloudy day IS the Day of the Lord. Which we all know is AFTER the tribulation period.

 

[Ahwatukee]

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period. So how in the wide wide world of sports can someone claim 1Thes.4 takes place 7 years prior to the Day of the Lord?

No Wall, both scriptures are not speaking about the same event! You always have to keep in mind the scriptures that state that believers are not appointed to suffer wrath and that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath.

Neither the word "clouds" or "trumpet" are unique or exclusive in referring to a specific event. For example, in Matt.24:31 which is at the time when Jesus returns to the earth to end the aged, He will send out His angels with a "loud trumpet call". Yet, that trumpet is not the same trumpet as the one in 1 Thes.4:16 nor is either of them the same as any of the seven trumpet judgments. Be careful not to pigeonhole words and thereby misapply them to the event of your choice.

I Thes.4:13-17 = The event of the gathering of the church. With the trumpet call of God, the church will be caught up

Zephaniah 1:1-3 = The events of the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath

These two scriptures above are speaking about two different events. Since the church is not appointed to suffer wrath and Zephaniah is referring to the time of God's wrath, then it cannot be referring to the church.

"I will sweep away everything from the face of the earth," "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD.
I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea-- and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble." "When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth," declares the LORD"

The above scripture is speaking about the day of the Lord, when God pours out His wrath upon the earth, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

The scripture above is in reference to when the Lord keeps His promise to come and gather His church prior to His wrath, in fulfillment of John 14:1-3, I Thes.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10

The bottom line is that, those who have received Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God, which means that His wrath no longer rests upon the believer and will therefore not being exposed to God's wrath.

I would advise looking up all of the instances in Scripture referring to "the day of the Lord" to see who the day of the Lord is directed at. For it certainly isn't going to be directed at those who have believed in His Son.

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"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

 

[Wall]

No Wall, both scriptures are not speaking about the same event! You always have to keep in mind the scriptures that state that believers are not appointed to suffer wrath and that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath.

No need to fear Gods wrath Ahwatukee

1 THESSALONIANS 5 [9] For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, [10] Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Here we see the people of God are not appointed to wrath. The Rapturist claim we are not appointed to wrath because we will be raptured into heaven during this period. You will not find one scripture that says we are going to heaven when we are changed “in the twinkling of an eye”. Not a one. So lets seee why we are not appointed to wrath.

JOHN 17 [14] I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. [15] I PRAY NOT THAT THOU SHOULDEST TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, BUT THAT THOU SHOULDEST KEEP THEM FROM THE EVIL. [16] They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Yeah, we aint a going nowhere but we will be protected. We will be kept from the evil to come.

ZEPH. 2 [1] Gather yourselves together, yea, gather together, O nation not desired; [2] Before the decree bring forth, before the day pass as the chaff, before the fierce anger of the Lord come upon you, BEFORE THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER come upon you. [3] SEEK YE THE LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: IT MAY BE YE SHALL BE HID IN THE DAY OF THE LORD'S ANGER.

We all should know that the tribulation period comes before the “Day of the Lord”. Gods wrath does not begin until the Day of the Lord which immediatley happens AFTER the tribulation period. Scripture above points out that we should seek the Lord BEFORE the “Day of the Lord” that we shall be hid during the Day of the Lords anger. Not a word about the tribulation period.

PROVERBS 3 [24] When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. [25] BE NOT AFRAID of sudden fear, neither OF THE DESOLATION OF THE WICKED, when it cometh. [26] For THE LORD SHALL BE THY CONFIDENCE, AND SHALL KEEP THY FOOT FROM BEING TAKEN.

The desolation of the wicked takes place on the return of Christ. Yup, the Day of the Lord. So can any of you Rapturist explain why we are told not to be afraid at that time IF we have been raptured off to heaven. Yeah. You cant explain that. Its because we will be here on Gods green earth

PSALM 37 [7] Rest in the Lord, and WAIT PATIENTLY FOR HIM: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass. [8] Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil. [9] FOR EVILDOERS SHALL BE CUT OFF: BUT THOSE THAT WAIT UPON THE LORD, THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH. [10] For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. [11] But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Just read the scripture above and believe it. The evildoers will be cut off. When? The Day of the Lord ofcourse. We are to wait patiently for Him till that time. According to the Rapturist we have been with Him for 7 yrs in heaven. Not so uh...cording to scripture

PSALM 37 [34] WAIT ON THE LORD, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, THOU SHALT SEE IT.

Where will we be waiting on the Lord? Trying to keep His ways? Yeah, right here on Gods green earth. And when He comes to destroy the wicked...were gonna see it happen