Baptism and holy spirit

[Stunnedbygrace]

to try and use cor 13 as proof of the end of the gifts of the spirit, any of them is taking that entire chapter out of context....

Not agreeing or disagreeing with that. Just wondering what the other verses are that have informed their belief about those three having ceased.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

It shows up, but not the text of what they wrote. Shows just their name and their signature.

So...not a vapor gift!

 

[shrume]

Some on here have explicitly stated that they believe tongues have ceased.

1 Cor 13 does not address all the gifts. 1 Cor 13 addresses only three gifts. These three have ended.

See?

Roger is one. There are others.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

See?

Roger is one. There are others.

Yes, that was my first thought: say no cessationists are participating and poof! one appears.
Still just one though.

 

[shrume]

Yes, that was my first thought: say no cessationists are participating and poof! one appears.
Still just one though.

There are others. I think both EG and dcon are cessationists. They responded earlier in this thread. Maybe Nehemiah, too. And others. It's a pretty common belief.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And I'm no more cranked up or disturbed by their beliefs than I am by yours. I just want to understand how they arrived there and what verses caused them to arrive there.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

There are others. I think both EG and dcon are cessationists. They responded earlier in this thread. Maybe Nehemiah, too. And others. It's a pretty common belief.

Maybe...but I still think it would be more accurate to say about most that the difference is not that they think tongues have ceased but that tongues are simply a language of somewhere on earth at some time...I think for most, they don't think prophecy, knowledge and tongues have ceased. Could be wrong though. Everyone has to speak for themselves.

 

[shrume]

And I'm no more cranked up or disturbed by their beliefs than I am by yours. I just want to understand how they arrived there and what verses caused them to arrive there.

Are you interested in which view is right? Do you think it's possible to know which view is right? Or is it valid if everyone has his own version of the truth?

..gotta go mow, will check back later.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Are you interested in which view is right? Do you think it's possible to know which view is right? Or is it valid if everyone has his own version of the truth?

..gotta go mow, will check back later.

I have to go too and won't be back until this evening. Sure have enjoyed our conversation yesterday and today though!

I don't think anyone sees everything and knows everything or has Gods' mind in everything (even Paul said at least once that he thought he had the mind of God in a certain matter and in another place said he was giving his opinion but it wasn't some firm word from God. He seemed to be very careful in those things.)

So I refuse to insist (would be arrogance on my part in my opinion) that I have all knowledge on tongues (when it isn't evenspoken of all that much, or exhaustively, by the apostles. But what I mostly refuse to do if it's at all in my power is to rail at someone for not having/walking in a certain gift/manifestation as if I know everything about how the Spirit will and must and is supposed to always do concerning everyone. I mean, we aren't talking about a salvation issue or a matter that involves eternal destiny apart from God. I've learned to pick my fights. If it's eternal-life-altering, that's when I will fight strenuously, though not nastily or arrogantly.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There are others. I think both EG and dcon are cessationists. They responded earlier in this thread. Maybe Nehemiah, too. And others. It's a pretty common belief.

I would say i am not a cessationalist, if god needs to use tongues for a specific purpose, ha can and will

I am saying the tongues particular churches do on sunday or other times is not the tongues of the first century in my view.

I also believe dueing the tribulation period, major gifts will again be brough to the forefront, as again, God has a purpose (especially if the rapture happens pretrib)

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

So...not a vapor gift!

Update: If they respond to your post it will appear with message hidden (just like before). Otherwise they're completely hidden.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Update: If they respond to your post it will appear with message hidden (just like before). Otherwise they're completely hidden.

And now you have the rest of the story. Good reporting, HRFTD.

No idea why I'm acting so silly. It happens from time to time. Just ask butthead.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

And now you have the rest of the story. Good reporting, HRFTD.

No idea why I'm acting so silly. It happens from time to time. Just ask butthead.

No problem, skippy.


(don't hit me!)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I would say i am not a cessationalist, if god needs to use tongues for a specific purpose, ha can and will

I am saying the tongues particular churches do on sunday or other times is not the tongues of the first century in my view.

I also believe dueing the tribulation period, major gifts will again be brough to the forefront, as again, God has a purpose (especially if the rapture happens pretrib)

A lot of people think this.
I've never been quite fully and dogmatically decided on every point about tongues. There's still some mystery there for me.
I do think it's faked a lot, but then that's to be expected if some are told they don't have the Spirit and hence are not saved, if and until they speak in tongues. I'm not convinced it's always faked and not convinced anyone fully understands it all. I have suspicions and inklings but no dogmatic rabidness on it.

 

[notuptome]

I've heard this before so I know it is the belief of some that knowledge, prophecy and tongues have ceased. My problem is that it struck me as so odd and beyond my ability to comprehend at the time that I just skipped over any such posts so I don't know what corroborative verses other than 1 cor 13 are used as proofs.

Gimme 'em, roger, so I can follow your thinking on it.

Paul said they would end so they ended. The perfect of verse 10 is the completed word of God the bible.

Prophecy has several meanings in scripture. In this verse it is understood to be Gods word. God is no longer adding to His word so that prophecy has ended.

Knowledge is understood in this context to be knowledge given directly from God. We no have seminaries to teach men how to rightly divide the word of God so the knowledge spoken of in the passage is ended.

Tongues were given as a sign to unsaved Jews. There are many circumstances present today where the Jews are not present to witness this sign. Pentecost is the feast of the latter first fruits. Tongues given at Pentecost are a latter first fruit of the Holy Spirit. Since Joel 2 is only partly fulfilled tongues are in that gap between Joel 2 and the return of our Savior.

All of these sign gifts were given to the apostolic church to establish the authority of the apostles and the disciples. After the bible was completed the bible became the authority used to preach Jesus to lost souls. The bible is certified by the Holy Spirit to be the word of God and the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth.

The question that you ask would require several volumes to adequately explain. It is one reasons why this subject is the source of so much controversy.

Any appearance of tongues in the modern NT church with no unsaved Jews being present would be suspect. The guidelines Paul establishes and the underlying edict of God that signs of which tongues would fall would be out of order and God desires that all things be done decently and in order. Signs are for the Jew and knowledge is for the Gentile.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I don't need several volumes.

Just desired the other witnesses/verses, because I know a little about you and don't think you would make a doctrine on one verse.

 

[Cee]

Have you followed the thread at all Cee...?? You seem to have just come in here and thrashed around, which I have never seen you do before...so I'm assuming you haven't read the thread...? No cessationists are speaking...no one is forbidding speaking in tongues or talking about speaking in tongues.

I've also never seen you be so illogical. Do known/recognized languages need an interpreter? If I heard farsi being spoken, (a known and recognized language on earth), I would not understand it unless someone was there who could interpret. In fact, if ANY known language of earth was spoken in my presence (other than English) I'd need an interpreter to understand what was being said because English is my only language.

The rest of your post I couldn't even figure out what you were saying. What does "the idea that perfect is scripture" mean? It appears to make no sense to me what you are saying, and I don't usually need an interpreter for English!

When you barge into a conversation like this (extremely out of character for you) and make the illogical statement (extremely out of character for you) that that if tongues were a language of earth then it is impossible that people would need any interpreter of that language in order to understand when it is spoken, you make me suspicious and guarded because if even the mere discussion of it can take you so out of character and so far from logic - of who I have come to know you as, - then it makes me want to flee the discussion so what has happened to you does not happen to me!

I was replying to threads about 5 pages before you joined in... the idea is that tongues is for people to share the gospel that’s why it’s known languages. So people can understand their language, referencing Acts 2, but Paul says if we don’t have an interpreter people won’t know what we are saying. I wrote a lot of ideas in one small space, I guess that came off as illogical to you. Thanks for the feedback and take care.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Paul said they would end so they ended. The perfect of verse 10 is the completed word of God the bible.

"the perfect of verse 10 is the completed word of God the bible". I just don't see it because the "perfect", we will see "face to face" . . . don't see the scripture "face to face". Now we know in part but then (when that which is perfect is come) we will know even as we are known. Sounds a lot like 1 John 3:2 Beloved now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Prophecy has several meanings in scripture. In this verse it is understood to be Gods word. God is no longer adding to His word so that prophecy has ended.

Prophecy in this context - being right smack dab in the middle of speaking about the manifestations and how they are to be operated would be the manifestation of prophecy - prophecy to edify the church.

Knowledge is understood in this context to be knowledge given directly from God. We no have seminaries to teach men how to rightly divide the word of God so the knowledge spoken of in the passage is ended.

Knowledge in this context - also being right smack dab in the middle of speaking about the manifestations and how they are to be operated would be the manifestation of "message of knowledge". And it would be knowledge directly from God - my heavenly Father has given me direction in my life many times - what to do and when to do it - which would be a "message of knowledge" and I don't think it has ended. Our heavenly Father doesn't want a one way relationship with us - where we just talk to him and he doesn't respond - it's a two way relationship.

Tongues were given as a sign to unsaved Jews. There are many circumstances present today where the Jews are not present to witness this sign. Pentecost is the feast of the latter first fruits. Tongues given at Pentecost are a latter first fruit of the Holy Spirit. Since Joel 2 is only partly fulfilled tongues are in that gap between Joel 2 and the return of our Savior.

All of these sign gifts were given to the apostolic church to establish the authority of the apostles and the disciples. After the bible was completed the bible became the authority used to preach Jesus to lost souls. The bible is certified by the Holy Spirit to be the word of God and the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth.

Tongues were given as spiritual power for the Christian. Tongues were given to edify the church. Tongues are a sign for unbelievers - not just "unsaved Jews".

The question that you ask would require several volumes to adequately explain. It is one reasons why this subject is the source of so much controversy.

Any appearance of tongues in the modern NT church with no unsaved Jews being present would be suspect. The guidelines Paul establishes and the underlying edict of God that signs of which tongues would fall would be out of order and God desires that all things be done decently and in order. Signs are for the Jew and knowledge is for the Gentile.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I could almost guarantee you that there are unbelievers in the "modern" church. Churches are supposed to be growing and expanding so if the church is growing - there will be unbelievers in the congregation.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I was replying to threads about 5 pages before you joined in... the idea is that tongues is for people to share the gospel that’s why it’s known languages. So people can understand their language, referencing Acts 2, but Paul says if we don’t have an interpreter people won’t know what we are saying. I wrote a lot of ideas in one small space, I guess that came off as illogical to you. Thanks for the feedback and take care.

Ah, well see there dummy? You didn't quote any post so I didn't know you were 5 pages back. So it's still your fault I nagged at you. It seemed very out of character for you as I said.

But still...Paul could have been saying that if no one was present who understood the particular language being spoken and so no one present was hearing their own language and so could not say (interpret) what it was that was being spoken, then there was no use of speaking it out loud.

Do you follow me? If someone is speaking in say...the Spanish language/tongue, but there are no Spanish speaking people present in the room, what good is it for them to speak out loud in Spanish when not a single person present will understand?

Mind you, I'm just noting where your logic is faulty to my eyes. I'm not stating that tongues are or are not human languages.

 

[shrume]

Paul said they would end so they ended.

Not sure about that logic, Roger. He also said Christ would come back. Has he?

The perfect of verse 10 is the completed word of God the bible.

See PB's response.

Prophecy has several meanings in scripture. In this verse it is understood to be Gods word. God is no longer adding to His word so that prophecy has ended.

Again, see PB's response. Prophesy in 1 Cor 13:8 is smack dab in the middle of chapters 12 and 14, which are speaking about the manifestation of prophesy.

Knowledge is understood in this context to be knowledge given directly from God. We no have seminaries to teach men how to rightly divide the word of God so the knowledge spoken of in the passage is ended.

Which denomination's seminaries do you trust to teach people how to rightly divide the word of God?

Also, same as above, 1 Cor 13:8 is between chapters 12 and 14, and the topic is manifestations.

Tongues were given as a sign to unsaved Jews.

Aside from the benefits to individual believers and the church, tongues are a sign to unsaved people.

There are many circumstances present today where the Jews are not present to witness this sign. Pentecost is the feast of the latter first fruits. Tongues given at Pentecost are a latter first fruit of the Holy Spirit. Since Joel 2 is only partly fulfilled tongues are in that gap between Joel 2 and the return of our Savior.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but aren't we still in that gap?

All of these sign gifts

Tongues is never called a "sign gift" in the Bible.

were given to the apostolic church to establish the authority of the apostles and the disciples.

The manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit was, and is, given to every Christian.

After the bible was completed the bible became the authority used to preach Jesus to lost souls. The bible is certified by the Holy Spirit to be the word of God and the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth.

That's more or less true. But manifestations are not for preaching.

The question that you ask would require several volumes to adequately explain. It is one reasons why this subject is the source of so much controversy.

Any appearance of tongues in the modern NT church with no unsaved Jews being present would be suspect.

Would it be suspect, or outright fake? I thought you believed tongues ceased.

The guidelines Paul establishes and the underlying edict of God that signs of which tongues would fall would be out of order and God desires that all things be done decently and in order.

Paul gave instruction on how to do that. When done correctly, prophesy and tongues with interpretation are decent and in order.

Signs are for the Jew and knowledge is for the Gentile.

I assume you're referring to 1 Cor 1:22? That's a statement about the culture of the time. The wisdom the Greeks sought after was worldly wisdom, not godly wisdom. And tongues is a sign to any unbeliever, not just Jews.