Baptism and holy spirit

shrume · May 31, 2018

No, it is not.

That's true. There are many, if not most, Christians who do not speak in tongues. Doesn't mean they can't, or that God does not want them to.

shrume · May 31, 2018

notuptome said:

Nobody spoke in tongues in the OT. It was not available to do so.

That's surely one way. But don't ignore this:

1 Cor 14:
4) He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

notuptome · May 31, 2018

shrume said:

LOL Everybody speaks in a tongue. Tongues are languages.

Even here in 1 Cor 14:5-6 Paul makes it clear that knowledge is required for edification. Paul also says that teaching is far better than speaking in a tongue other than their native tongue.

Why speak in Spanish if the congregation is English speaking?

Why did God use tongues to signify judgment?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

shrume · May 31, 2018

notuptome said:

Everybody speaks a language. Every Christian can speak in tongues, which is a manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit. When a person speaks in tongues, he does not know what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14).

Paul clearly states that when a person speaks in tongues he edifies himself (1 Cor 14:4), and when a person speaks in tongues and interprets, the church is edified (1 Cor 14:5).

And "speaking in tongues" in 1 Cor 14 is talking about the manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit, not speaking your known language.

You are ignoring vv 5, and 27-28

It would be stupid.

But it is possible that when a person speaks in tongues, he could be speaking Spanish. But whatever language he speaks when speaking in tongues, when done in public, it must be interpreted so the church can be edified.

The occurrences of "tongues" in the OT are not the manifestation of speaking in tongues. It was not possible to speak in tongues before the day of Pentecost.

Ralph- · May 31, 2018

I've heard fake tongues and I've heard real tongues. And when you hear the real thing from someone you trust you will know they have not passed away.

God still gives that special gift designed to bring personal edification to believers as he has determined he will give it. But if you have decided that he is not doing that anymore, you will not be one receiving that gift for as James says the person who doubts does not receive from God.

Waggles · May 31, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

Nonsense. Simply untrue. Unscriptural.

Praying in tongues is the Bible evidence of having received (baptized in) the Holy Spirit.
Jesus himself declared it to be so - Acts confirms it, the epistles explain it.

And also as we have full access to prophesy by the Holy Spirit in our Pentecostal meetings God also upholds
the necessity to pray daily in the spiritual language that he has given to those in the body of Christ.
God informs us that praying in tongues is praying in the Spirit and exercising faith and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Now who should I believe?
God himself speaking by his Spirit in the church, or a confused rabble of unbelievers?

peacefulbeliever · May 31, 2018

Nehemiah6 said:

1 Cor. 12:13 shows us that all Christians have been baptized in one spirit. The only way every Christian is when they confess Jesus as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead - they are saved, i.e. made whole, born again of the Spirit. They are synonymous terms. Repent and be baptized every one of you . . . and you will receive the gift of holy spirit. (Acts 2:38); In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised holy spirit. (Eph. 1:13); For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13)

When a person is saved and baptized in holy spirit, that salvation and baptism is an inward work . . . the twelve apostles on the day of Pentecost, when they were baptized in holy spirit they immediately manifested by speaking in tongues - which is one of the manifestations of the Spirit. From that day on - ALL who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are born again of the Spirit, filled with the Spirit, and baptized with the Spirit. Some manifest outwardly what has taken place on the inside, i.e. receiving the gift of holy spirit and others do not . . . doesn't mean that one is "truly" born again and one is not. Whether they do or not does not negate the fact that God says - "the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY man (believer) for the common good.

In modern parlance - I desire, I want all of you to speak in tongues, but rather you prophesy; for the one that prophesies is greater than the one that speaks in tongues UNLESS (the one speaking in tongues) interprets so that the church may receive edifying.

The verse is not saying "don't speak in tongues because you should be prophesying" - It is saying that prophesy is just as good as tongues if interpreted - both edify the church.

This section of scripture is blending the manifestations (v7) and the ministries (v4-6) and points out that not everyone will be energized in the same way at the same time. What we see happening with people's understanding is the blending of the manifestations (e.g. tongues, interpretation, miracles, etc.) with the gift ministries (e.g. apostles, prophets, teachers, etc. [also Eph. 4:11]) 1 Cor. 12:28-30 are summarizing what has been said previously - It is the Lord that distributes to every person, at any given time . . . It is the Lord that energizes a persons individual gift (e.g. teachers, prophets, apostles) and it is the Lord who energizes the manifestations differently in different people even though each person can manifest all nine manifestations. Just like my body - my foot doesn't do what my hand is supposed to do . . . my leg doesn't do what my arm is supposed to do . . . But now God has set the members every one of them in the body, as it has pleased him . . . Now you are the body of Christ and members in particular.

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. - Yes, there are distributions of gifts - in v. 4-6 - the words "diversities", and "differences" have the same meaning - distribution. v4 - there is a distribution of gifts - gifts are individually given - v5 - there are distributions of administrations (services) - v6 - there are distributions of operations - energies and energizing - pointing out it is the same God who distributes them all in all. Then v7 - sets in contrast what has been said previously - "BUT" or "NOW" the manifestation of the Spirit is given to EVERY man (believer) for the common good then list the manifestations.

Tongues have not ceased. If tongues have ceased then we also no longer have prophecy to edify the church because they have failed and we no longer receive a message of knowledge (revelation) from God? Does the Bible have a "face"?

The apostles were told to tarry in Jerusalem to wait for the promise of the Father, for John truly baptized in water but now you shall be baptized with holy spirit. (Acts 1:5) . . . you shall receive power after that the holy spirit is come upon you; e.g. you are baptized with holy spirit; (Acts 1:8) And they were all filled with holy spirit (baptized with holy spirit) and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. (Acts 2:4) - that was the result of being baptized, being filled with holy spirit. And yes, the holy spirit energized by God gave them boldness to speak the word of God.

shrume · May 31, 2018

Ralph- said:

Speaking in tongues is not a "special gift". It is one of the nine manifestations of the singular gift of the Holy Spirit.

EVERY Christian has the gift of the Holy Spirit living in him. EVERY Christian has the ability to operate the manifestations of that gift, one of which is speaking in tongues.

Most Christians simply do not understand what it is. They expect to be possessed by God, or something, and forced to speak something they are not in control of doing. When a person speaks in tongues, it's the person who does the speaking. The language he is speaking comes from God, but the person is in control of the mechanics of speaking. He can start and stop when he likes. He can speak fast, slow, aloud, or to himself. If a person refuses to begin speaking, he will never speak in tongues.

shrume · May 31, 2018

Waggles said:

You are wrong, Waggles.

While any Christian has the ability to speak in tongues, for one reason or another, most do not. I believe it's mostly due to ignorance of what speaking in tongues is. People are afraid of it.

While I generally agree with you, there is no scripture that states that if a person does not speak in tongues, he is not saved, or has not received the Holy Spirit.

Your church had led you astray, condemning many Christians to hell without a reason. It's a belief of your church, and is not biblical.

Again, there is NO scripture that states that if a person does not speak in tongues, he is not saved, or has not received the Holy Spirit.

notuptome · May 31, 2018

shrume said:

LOL So you are saying that tongues are not known languages?

You are making up the no tongues before Pentecost right? You know that Jews celebrated the feast of Pentecost long before the Holy Spirit filled the disciples in Acts 2?

You are now revealing the nature of your teaching. Not biblical but one of self edification. You do not properly understand 1 Cor 14 or you would know it is not saying what you want it to say.

Proper context makes your proof texts nothing but a pretext.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

notuptome · May 31, 2018

Waggles said:

Jesus never said a single word about tongues. Jesus never spoke in tongues as they are described in this discussion. Jesus spoke in word easy to be understood by those who heard Him.

For those with ears to hear He still speaks with words easy to be heard and understood.

You are clearly in the very small minority of Pentecostals that have an incorrect soteriology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

hornetguy · May 31, 2018

shrume said:

Paul says it is, brother... you can argue with him, if you wish.... please read this, slowly if you must, but Paul is very clear about how every believer does NOT have every manifestation. The whole comparison of the church to a body is expressly for the purpose of explaining exactly that.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith [d]by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of [e]healing [f]by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the [g]effecting of [h]miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the [i]distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For [j]by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason [k]any the less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason [l]any the less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19 If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now there are many members, but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, [m]it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23 and those members of the body which we [n]deem less honorable, [o]on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24 whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25 so that there may be no [p]division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is [q]honored, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has [r]appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then [s]miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of [t]miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
And I show you a still more excellent way.

Waggles · May 31, 2018

shrume said:

No one is condemning others to the grave, or claiming that they are unsaved.
Pentecostals overcome through the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit, others do so through their own strength.

And yes the scriptures do teach us that people can believe the gospel of repentance and have NOT the Holy Spirit
Acts 8 and Acts 19

hornetguy · May 31, 2018

shrume said:

Your statement is in total disagreement with most of the "tongue speakers" I've interacted with. Nearly to a person they say that the Sprit takes control of them, and they simply are speaking through that power.... NOT of their own accord. Nearly all of them say they have no control over starting or stopping.

Waggles · May 31, 2018

notuptome said:

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:

7 Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again.
8 The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth.
So is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 3:

shrume · May 31, 2018

notuptome said:

When a person speaks in tongues, he does not know what he is saying. He does not know what language he is speaking. It is a language of men or of angels.

No.

Of course. But nobody operated the manifestation of speaking in tongues before the Pentecost after Christ's ascension.

All you are doing is stating false accusations. Everything I have stated is biblical. I have given scripture to back up everything I've said. On the other hand, you have misquoted Paul several times, claiming he said things he did not.

Please come up with something specific, Roger. Because you do not believe in speaking in tongues, nor do you understand what it is, your primary defense is to insult and belittle me, accuse me of proof-texting, and you make false statements as to what Paul wrote, claiming he said things he did not say.

shrume · May 31, 2018

hornetguy said:

Your statement is in total disagreement with most of the "tongue speakers" I've interacted with. Nearly to a person they say that the Sprit takes control of them, and they simply are speaking through that power.... NOT of their own accord. Nearly all of them say they have no control over starting or stopping.

God does not possess people.

shrume · May 31, 2018

hornetguy said:

Indeed he does:

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

There is no need to be condescending. I can read just fine.

It is true that in the church not everyone operates every manifestation. If they did, meetings would never end. And some people are simply "better" at operating some of the manifestations that other people are.

But EVERY Christian can hear from God (word of knowledge, word of wisdom, discerning of spirits), every Christian has the ability to speak in tongues, interpret, and prophesy. If he get the revelation to do so, a Christian can also operate the manifestation of gifts of healings (it's the only manifestation that's called a gift) and miracles.

God would like every Christian to speak in tongues, and we are told to covet to prophesy.

shrume · May 31, 2018

Waggles said:

When people hear the gospel and believe it, they are sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13-14).

In Acts 8, the believers were born again, but had not "lambano"ed (received into manifestation).

In Acts 19, they were only baptized into John's baptism. They had never heard of the Holy Spirit.

One thing you're right about, Waggles: the Apostles were concerned to see that new Christians spoke in tongues. In Acts 2, the Apostles spoke in tongues. In Acts 8, Simon saw something that made him believe that the spirit was given through the laying on of hands. What did he see? I'll bet he saw them speak in tongues. In Acts 9, Paul got saved, and we know he spoke in tongues. In Acts 10, Peter and those with him heard Cornelius and his family speak in tongues. That's why Peter was shocked. It was proof that Cornelius was saved. In Acts 19, they spoke in tongues.

While I do believe that speaking in tongues is proof that a person is saved, there is no verse of scripture that states that if a person does not speak in tongues, he is not saved, or has not received the Holy Spirit.

shrume · May 31, 2018

notuptome said:

That is true, unless you accept Mark 16:17 as authentic. Many people believe Mark should end at Mark 16:8.

That's right. The gift of the Holy Spirit we have today was not available before the day of Pentecost (John 7:39).

Actually, he spoke in parables that many people did not understand.

Indeed He does. And assuming you believe what Paul wrote is scripture, God would like all Christians to speak in tongues.

I agree that Waggles is wrong in this area.

Baptism and holy spirit

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