Predestination or free will?
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Thanks Cali Bob. To those who don't think God is capable of knowing how people will think, you need to realize that God is not a person with a mind like ours. Job 22:12 says that God is in the highest heavens and other verses say that he is all around us. If God is in that many places I see him as many parts scattered throughout the galaxy and likely the universe. Each of these parts has an intelligence and most likely communicate with each other the same way as the trinity communicate with each other. All of those pieces of intelligent God make up one huge brain. Why wouldn't he be intelligent enough to know our minds?
I studied the Bible and not religion I never knew who Martin Luther was untill I watched a documentary on the invention of the printing press few years ago. I've seen over and again what happens to good people who follow leaders without question, so I question and if I smell a rat, I look it up again. If I can't come up with with a conclusion of my own, I set it aside or disgard it. That's why I turned my back on the RCC so young. Later when I read the Bible and they didn't measure up I looked elsewhere and really learned about Jesus.
Thank you, Cali Bob
Thank you, Cali Bob
OOH, good question, Mary Magdaline was from a place called Magdala, (I don't know how to spell it) and Luke was a Greek, jesus and the rest of the original 12 were Jews I believe. The Jews who believed in the prophecy of the coming messiah his crucifixion and his resurection I believe were saved by faith at Calvary. The ones who thought the Christ would be like King David and rescue them from the Romans by military force and rebellion, those who shouted "Crucify him" and Judas the traitor probably will be judged like any other sinner. That's what I believe. calibob
H...,
Scripture tells us that in the end times...great delusions.....will be experienced. They are here in many forms and in many ways.
New age religion teachings which has sprung from the 1960's social revolution has found a position in mainstream Christianity and is
miss leading many as part of the delusional prophecy.
Scripture tells us that in the end times...great delusions.....will be experienced. They are here in many forms and in many ways.
New age religion teachings which has sprung from the 1960's social revolution has found a position in mainstream Christianity and is
miss leading many as part of the delusional prophecy.
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This is a great question but I'm sorry to say, G-d already predestined the knowing in my free-will I would get knocked up 27 years ago with an autistic child. He predestined to take care of my son in me when the Dr. said to me, "there are other options", and I looked him straight in the eye and emphatically said "NO". My Dr. was taken back he said, "ok".
G-d does knew what I will do ahead of time but I had the option to MURDER!!! Just like a guy person has the option to indulge in sin, so did I. But they do don't have to just like I chose not to murder my son. G-d sent Jonah to give Nivia a choice, G-d knew they would repent but He sent Jonah anyway. Nivah had to choose, it was only the human Johna that did not like their free will!!!! They repented!!!
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first I cannot find what you are talking abou tin Romans 9 and in Chapter 8, verse 30.."Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. "
To Justifiy someone is to declare them righteous. To gain righteousness is for one to gain their salvation. God in this verse was strictly speaking from His side and did not include Man's Salvation side. Justified therefore = salvation.
God already knows who will be saved through their own Free-Will and Who will not. Who will persevere to the end and those who will not....By end, I mean the end of their life. Therefore, God can predestine those who He has foreknown as a True Believer and has made sure that Satan nor anything else will steal them away.
Blade
To Justifiy someone is to declare them righteous. To gain righteousness is for one to gain their salvation. God in this verse was strictly speaking from His side and did not include Man's Salvation side. Justified therefore = salvation.
God already knows who will be saved through their own Free-Will and Who will not. Who will persevere to the end and those who will not....By end, I mean the end of their life. Therefore, God can predestine those who He has foreknown as a True Believer and has made sure that Satan nor anything else will steal them away.
Blade
J
I agree. If God knew that some people would reject salvation and go to hell before the creation of the world, why go to the trouble of creating that person? They're predestined for hell, so the the argument that there's a chance they would choose to be saved falls flat.
So to you God does not know everything (omniscience) and certainly does not know what humans will want to or will to do before the fact. If God is not omniscient in this pertinent sense, then our wills must either randomly pop into existence or are created by something or someone other than God and by necessity are wills that occur despite what God wants them to be and are this beyond his control. Just laying out the logical consequence of your denial of omniscience.
So to you God does not know everything (omniscience) and certainly does not know what humans will want to or will to do before the fact. If God is not omniscient in this pertinent sense, then our wills must either randomly pop into existence or are created by something or someone other than God and by necessity are wills that occur despite what God wants them to be and are this beyond his control. Just laying out the logical consequence of your denial of omniscience.
God knows everything 
He allowed Adam to name the animals:
Gen 2:
19) And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
Just before the flood of Noah, God was sorry He had made man, and was about to wipe all of them out.
Gen 6: (ESV)
6) And the LORD was sorry that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
7) So the LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them."
He tested Abraham's faith:
Gen22:
12) And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
It never entered God's mind that His people would fall to the point they were sacrificing their children:
Jer 7:
30) "'The people of Judah have done evil in my eyes, declares the LORD. They have set up their detestable idols in the house that bears my Name and have defiled it.
31) They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to burn their sons and daughters in the fire-something I did not command, nor did it enter my mind.
Of course that is true. We do lots of things that God does not want us to do. Does God EVER want us to sin? Every time someone chooses to sin, it is beyond God's control.
Also, I do believe God is omniscient. He knows absolutely everything that is available to know.
What I disagree with is the Orthodox definition of omniscience, that God lives "outside of time", and knows absolutely everything anyone ever WILL do.
Also, I do believe God is omniscient. He knows absolutely everything that is available to know.
What I disagree with is the Orthodox definition of omniscience, that God lives "outside of time", and knows absolutely everything anyone ever WILL do.
J
Then God does not create everything, or God only created physical things. All mental things, then (such as will) were created by something or someone other than God and are thus beyond his control in determining whether or not mental things will exist before the fact. If mental things are not created by anyone or anything, they randomly and absurdly pop into existence from nonexistence.
Perhaps when one states that "God created everything", one might consider placing an asterisk at the end of the sentence.
I have learned from past experience that it is a complete waste of time trying to explain anything to you and I am sure that this will have no effect on you. However, for the sake of others who may be following this, let me explain.
Verse 30 is part of a larger context of amplification that I will not go into at this time except as it relates to verses 29-30.
Amplified comprehension carries us beyond any mere psychological understanding of who we are. Man is not just the product of a set of supposed random cause to effect natural events that we call the evolutionary process. This is nothing but foolishness. Our presence on this earth and our relationship to the Creator is a matter of the eternal will of God.
1. “For those whom He foreknew,”
This makes us the subject of eternal foreknowledge. We were in the mind of God before time began. This means that time and everything in it exists for the benefit of those whom God foreknew. The language expresses not individuals but a collective.
2. “He also predestined.”
We are embedded in the eternal arrangement of divine fellowship. This is the purpose for our existence in this world. To what then were we predestined?
* We are predestined to conformity, “To be conformed to the image of his Son.” 29.
* We are predestined to first-born status, “that we might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
3. “Those whom predestined, he also called.”
There is a misconception about the extent of God's calling among Calvinists. This does not say that God only called those whom he foreknew. This is not an exclusionary act. This is assumed by Calvinism to defend their idea of election. The call is not just some mysterious nebulous feeling or irresistible desire that God imposes on the hearts of a select few. The call is the preaching of the gospel. Everyone who has ever heard the gospel preached has been called. 2Thesselonians 2:14, “It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
The call is not limited to only a select and predetermined few, and not everyone who is called is chosen. Matthew 22:14, “Many are called but few (of those who are called) are chosen.” The invitation from the Lord goes out to all, and all who are willing are encouraged to “come.” Revelation 22:17-19, “The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.” This is an open invasion to all. God is actively pursuing the willing. In so doing, he has called those whom he foreknew. In time, here on the earth, and while up to our necks in experiences, both good and bad, God has called us to this hope.
4. “These whom He called, He also justified;”
We stand in accredited righteousness, free from sin. As Paul says in 2Corinthians 5:21, “That we might become the righteousness of God in him.”
5. “These whom He justified, He also glorified.”
We are to be distinguished from those who rejected the amplified comprehension. Those who wish to live according to this world forfeit glorification by God for ephemeral concerns. This certainly does not exclude members of the body of Christ. We are certainly not perfect but, the Holy Spirit has amplified our understanding of who we are and what we are about. We now exist, “To be conformed to the image of his Son that we might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
None of this says that God predestined anyone to be saved and as chapter nine explains, this is about a collective and not individuals. What God predestined was that the saved would be conformed to the image of his Son, that they would be called, glorified, and justified.
Dead or alive, we are part of the eternal family of God and we will remain so even when this creation is assigned to destruction.
Verse 30 is part of a larger context of amplification that I will not go into at this time except as it relates to verses 29-30.
Amplified comprehension carries us beyond any mere psychological understanding of who we are. Man is not just the product of a set of supposed random cause to effect natural events that we call the evolutionary process. This is nothing but foolishness. Our presence on this earth and our relationship to the Creator is a matter of the eternal will of God.
1. “For those whom He foreknew,”
This makes us the subject of eternal foreknowledge. We were in the mind of God before time began. This means that time and everything in it exists for the benefit of those whom God foreknew. The language expresses not individuals but a collective.
2. “He also predestined.”
We are embedded in the eternal arrangement of divine fellowship. This is the purpose for our existence in this world. To what then were we predestined?
* We are predestined to conformity, “To be conformed to the image of his Son.” 29.
* We are predestined to first-born status, “that we might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
3. “Those whom predestined, he also called.”
There is a misconception about the extent of God's calling among Calvinists. This does not say that God only called those whom he foreknew. This is not an exclusionary act. This is assumed by Calvinism to defend their idea of election. The call is not just some mysterious nebulous feeling or irresistible desire that God imposes on the hearts of a select few. The call is the preaching of the gospel. Everyone who has ever heard the gospel preached has been called. 2Thesselonians 2:14, “It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
The call is not limited to only a select and predetermined few, and not everyone who is called is chosen. Matthew 22:14, “Many are called but few (of those who are called) are chosen.” The invitation from the Lord goes out to all, and all who are willing are encouraged to “come.” Revelation 22:17-19, “The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.” This is an open invasion to all. God is actively pursuing the willing. In so doing, he has called those whom he foreknew. In time, here on the earth, and while up to our necks in experiences, both good and bad, God has called us to this hope.
4. “These whom He called, He also justified;”
We stand in accredited righteousness, free from sin. As Paul says in 2Corinthians 5:21, “That we might become the righteousness of God in him.”
5. “These whom He justified, He also glorified.”
We are to be distinguished from those who rejected the amplified comprehension. Those who wish to live according to this world forfeit glorification by God for ephemeral concerns. This certainly does not exclude members of the body of Christ. We are certainly not perfect but, the Holy Spirit has amplified our understanding of who we are and what we are about. We now exist, “To be conformed to the image of his Son that we might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
None of this says that God predestined anyone to be saved and as chapter nine explains, this is about a collective and not individuals. What God predestined was that the saved would be conformed to the image of his Son, that they would be called, glorified, and justified.
Dead or alive, we are part of the eternal family of God and we will remain so even when this creation is assigned to destruction.
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