GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

[posthuman]

Yet, Peter never did eat. Is that also a detail of the vision?

And given he was a Jew, the elimination of God's commandments regarding what was food and what was not, would be a big deal. A very big deal.

And yet he never once even suggested such a thing after this vision that remotely even starts to address God's Food laws. In fact, if it wasn't for the ancient religious tradition of transgressing this commandment, we wouldn't even think about this scripture as regarding the elimination of God's Food Laws, rather, exposing the deceit that was still in Peter given that it wasn't against the Laws of God for a Jew to eat with a repentant gentile.

34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

So IOW you're perfectly comfortable with an interpretation that makes God commanding Peter to do evil, three times, and then chastising Peter for his stubborn refusal? This fits your view of God's character?

and did you have other examples of this in scripture to corroborate, or...?

 

[posthuman]

It's ok dude Peter didn't understand right away either.

Acts 10:17
Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon's house, stood at the gate

 

[Studyman]

"You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them."
Acs 11:3

"For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group."
Gal 2:12

---

Do not expect Gentiles to eat a kosher food. Eating with them was eating their food.

[28] And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Is this it then? You place the preaching that Jesus eliminated His Fathers creation of clean and unclean on this?

My friend, what if Jesus is right? What if His warnings are true? Surely we must take this possibility into consideration.

 

[Studyman]

So IOW you're perfectly comfortable with an interpretation that makes God commanding Peter to do evil, three times, and then chastising Peter for his stubborn refusal? This fits your view of God's character?

and did you have other examples of this in scripture to corroborate, or...?

Where did God rebuke Peter for honoring His Food laws, or any of His other instructions for that matter? Since you preach he was rebuked for not eating unclean food, please show me where.

 

[trofimus]

[28] And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Is this it then? You place the preaching that Jesus eliminated His Fathers creation of clean and unclean on this?

My friend, what if Jesus is right? What if His warnings are true? Surely we must take this possibility into consideration.

I am lost in your reasoning.

You said that Peter did not eat, I gave 2 verses where he did eat with Gentiles.

I am not sure what you mean by "what if Jesus was right". It was Jesus who sent his apotles to all nations.

 

[Studyman]

It's ok dude Peter didn't understand right away either.

Acts 10:17
Now while Peter was inwardly perplexed as to what the vision that he had seen might mean, behold, the men who were sent by Cornelius, having made inquiry for Simon's house, stood at the gate

Yes, he was troubled. Why would God want him to blatantly disobey His Commandments like the Mainstream Church of his time were doing?

Then God let him know.

[28] And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

If you want to use this as support for man's religious tradition of rejected God's instructions, you are free to do so. And maybe God did, without warning, without any prophesy, destroy His creation of clean and unclean, that only those who reject God's Words can see. Who knows, maybe the serpent was right?

[5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Sorry, I just don't believe this.

 

[Studyman]

I am lost in your reasoning.

You said that Peter did not eat, I gave 2 verses where he did eat with Gentiles.

I am not sure what you mean by "what if Jesus was right". It was Jesus who sent his apotles to all nations.

I never said Peter didn't eat food, that's just dishonest. I posted the scriptures which show Peter never ate the creepy crawlers in his vision.

I don't buy into your assumption that Gentiles only ate unclean food.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

What if the Word which became Flesh is right?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

What if the Word which became Flesh is right?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

What if the Word which became Flesh is Right.

Is. 66:[17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Matt. 6:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

33 And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils.

34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

Jesus didn't eliminate God's Laws my friend. Yes, there are "Many" who come in Christ's Name, that preach He is truly the Christ, that preach all manner of things including the myth that Jesus eliminated, destroyed, His fathers Commandments in whole or in part. But Jesus Himself taught He didn't do such a thing and there is no real support for your assumption that He lied to us when He declared this.

So I ask, what if Jesus is right?

 

[trofimus]

I never said Peter didn't eat food, that's just dishonest. I posted the scriptures which show Peter never ate the creepy crawlers in his vision.

I don't buy into your assumption that Gentiles only ate unclean food.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

What if the Word which became Flesh is right?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

What if the Word which became Flesh is right?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

What if the Word which became Flesh is Right.

Is. 66:[17] They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.

Matt. 6:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.

31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.

32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.

33 And they that kept them fled, and went their ways into the city, and told every thing, and what was befallen to the possessed of the devils.

34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.

Jesus didn't eliminate God's Laws my friend. Yes, there are "Many" who come in Christ's Name, that preach He is truly the Christ, that preach all manner of things including the myth that Jesus eliminated, destroyed, His fathers Commandments in whole or in part. But Jesus Himself taught He didn't do such a thing and there is no real support for your assumption that He lied to us when He declared this.

So I ask, what if Jesus is right?

The Old Covenant is not a general "God´s Law" given to all people. It was only a temporal covenant given to Israel and only until Christ came.

So, in this light, I see no logic in your reasoning...

For your view to be valid, you would have to:
a) prove that the Old Covenant was given to all people (including me, a Central European) and not just to Abraham´s physical descendants - Israel.

b) prove that the Old Covenant was not temporal till Christ, but meant to be continuously valid even in the New Covenant.

P.S.: Eating with Gentiles was about eating unclean food. That was the reason why Jews did not eat with Gentiles. Or do you know a commandment "do not eat with Gentiles" in the OT, that is not based in the food of Gentiles?

 

[posthuman]

No law whatsoever needs to be either changed or removed in any way at all for none of it to apply to a dead man.

Romans 7:1
Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?

So enough with the strawmen and fatally flawed logical presumptions, ok?
The other believing Pharisees that went before us already thought to command all believers to be baptized into Moses ((Acts 15)). The answer was "no"

 

[Studyman]

The Old Covenant is not a general "God´s Law" given to all people. It was only a temporal covenant given to Israel and only until Christ came.

So, in this light, I see no logic in your reasoning...

For your view to be valid, you would have to:
a) prove that the Old Covenant was given to all people (including me, a Central European) and not just to Abraham´s physical descendants - Israel.

b) prove that the Old Covenant was not temporal till Christ, but meant to be continuously valid even in the New Covenant.

P.S.: Eating with Gentiles was about eating unclean food. That was the reason why Jews did not eat with Gentiles. Or do you know a commandment "do not eat with Gentiles" in the OT, that is not based in the food of Gentiles?

Once again, if you read and believe what the Word which became Flesh says the New Covenant is, you will find it differs from the religious teaching of the land and by extension your preaching.

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

No mention of the Word which became Flesh eliminating God's instructions or definition of Holy, unholy, Clean or unclean. Only that the Word which became Flesh will no longer require God's Word to be administered through Levite Priests, Rather, He will write His instructions on our hearts. You are adding things that are not there to support your religious tradition.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Again, no mention that God's Definition of sin is changed or eliminated, only that we will no longer be required to find a Levite Priest and bring a goat to atone for our sins, The Word which became Flesh will forgive us "apart" from the "Works of the Law" as He did for Abraham.

God says there is: Ex. 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

The New Testament teaches the same thing. "there is no Jew or Greek".

God's Priesthood was Temporal, not God's Definition of sin for mankind.

But you don't seem to believe in this Word.

Rom. 2:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

The Biblical truth is that there is not one place in the Bible that teaches Jesus eliminated any of God's Instructions. He became our High Priest, He changed the priesthood and Laws associated with them as Hebrews 7 clearly points out. But He didn't change His Sabbath or His Fathers definition of what was created for food and what was not created for food.

Since I can find no evidence that He did as you and "Many" who come in Christ's name teach, and given all the warnings of people who "come in Christ's name" to deceive, I believe it is prudent to stick with the Word and trust what HE SAYS over the religious traditions of the religions of the land. And it is my experience after 25 years that He is faithful to "manifest Himself" in the manner that He promised.

John 14: 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

So I ask the question; "What if Jesus is right"?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here's one that might not have been considered yet.

To the clean all [things are] clean, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing [is] clean, but both their mind and conscience are defiled. Titus 1:15​

 

[shrume]

So I ask the question; "What if Jesus is right"?

Jesus is right:

Matt 15:
16) And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17) Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18) But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20) These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

So is Paul:

Rom 14:
2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

 

[Studyman]

No law whatsoever needs to be either changed or removed in any way at all for none of it to apply to a dead man.

Romans 7:1
Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?

So enough with the strawmen and fatally flawed logical presumptions, ok?
The other believing Pharisees that went before us already thought to command all believers to be baptized into Moses ((Acts 15)). The answer was "no"

You only say this because you only believe those Word's of the Christ which can be used to promote your religious traditions.. When it come to your religious traditions, you jump to the side of the Mainstream Preachers of Christ's time which He declared "SAID" they followed the Law of Moses, but as my Savior said many times, they do NOT follow the Laws of Moses. They say and do not do.

Jesus knew this and so did James and Peter even if you must ignore it so as to salvage religious traditions you choose to follow.

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they (Pharisees, not God as you imply) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck (Shoulders) of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

You must preach this is speaking about God's Laws to promote your religious traditions. You can't accept the Biblical truth that God's Commandments are not burdensome, rather, the religious traditions of men which cause all who follow to "Transgress God's Commandments". Peter knew who these people were and he kept the new converts away from them, telling them instead not to listen to the Mainstream Preachers of his time, but to repent of some sins that were evident at the time, and go learn the rest from Moses. Like Jesus said;

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols(Law of Moses), and from fornication(Law of Moses), , and from things strangled(Law of Moses), , and from blood(Law of Moses),

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


And why not. This is exactly what Jesus instructed the Apostles to do.

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, (They follow the Law of Moses) and do not.

You can mock and make fun of these words, call my argument straw man, and on and on. But your lack of understanding or unbelief doesn't make God's Word Void, IMO.

You can preach that Jesus made all things clean but James and Peter sure didn't follow your religion in Acts 15.

 

[Studyman]

Jesus is right:

Matt 15:
16) And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
17) Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
18) But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20) These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Yes, evil thoughts, disobedience, rebellion, these all come from within and defile a man, but refusing to follow religious traditions of a religion of the land, does not defile a man.



Rom 14:
2) For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4) Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5) One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6) He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

What difference does it make what one man weak in the faith believes or another man weak in the faith believes. All true believers start as a child and grow in the knowledge of the Lord.

Let each person be convinced in their own minds who to listen to, the Word's of God, or the religious traditions of the Land.

You can't make a person love God. It has to be a freewill offering.

11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You can preach that Jesus made all things clean but James and Peter sure didn't follow your religion in Acts 15.

That's because they didn't want gentiles offending those with no faith. To the clean all things are clean.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For the one who serves Christ in this [way is] well-pleasing to God and approved by people. So then, let us pursue what promotes peace and what edifies one another. Do not destroy the work of God on account of food. All [things are] clean, but [it is] wrong for the person who eats and stumbles in the process. [It is] good not to eat meat or to drink wine or [to do anything] by which your brother stumbles. The faith that you have, have with respect to yourself before God. Blessed [is] the one who does not pass judgment on himself by what he approves. But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not [do so] from faith, and everything that [is] not from faith is sin. Romans 14:17-23​

 

[Studyman]

That's because they didn't want gentiles offending those with no faith.

That is your doctrine, but there is little evidence to support it. It may also be that the Apostles believed what Jesus taught them, and they understood all about the "Leaven of the Pharisees" and that they directed them to Moses just as Jesus instructed the Apostles to do.

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

So maybe they didn't want to offend the Gentiles, even though there is no evidence to support this teaching. But shouldn't we also consider that maybe they were just following the instructions of the Christ? There is a lot more evidence to support this belief than the other IMO.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That is your doctrine, but there is little evidence to support it.

Only to those who are willfully blind.

 

[Studyman]

For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. For the one who serves Christ in this [way is] well-pleasing to God and approved by people. So then, let us pursue what promotes peace and what edifies one another. Do not destroy the work of God on account of food. All [things are] clean, but [it is] wrong for the person who eats and stumbles in the process. [It is] good not to eat meat or to drink wine or [to do anything] by which your brother stumbles. The faith that you have, have with respect to yourself before God. Blessed [is] the one who does not pass judgment on himself by what he approves. But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not [do so] from faith, and everything that [is] not from faith is sin. Romans 14:17-23​

I agree.

You can't make someone Love God or trust Him. Are life here is a journey, we will learn through the things we suffer. "Until we all come to the Unity of faith".

But this one verse does not make Void God's definition of Righteousness. At some point these "weak" in the faith will have to grow up.

Heb. 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

But for the truly repentant God is faithful to guide them in all truth.

 

[Deade]

Okay you non-believers. Jesus was the one that said "Let there be light." Jesus, according to John chapter 1, was the one interacting with all the patriarchs including Adam. The first reference to clean meats is when Noah was gathering the animals for the Ark.

Gen. 7:2 "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female." So it becomes obvious that someone had been given instructions on what was considered clean. I purpose that someone was Adam.

You see this was already in effect before the law was given at Mt. Sinai/Horeb. Now ask yourself this question: Why did Jesus instruct them so? Common sense should give you the answer.