Baptism and holy spirit

[hornetguy]

why would people pray for others to recieve the spirit? They either have the spirit because they have been saved, or they do not, if they do not have the spirit, you praying for them to be saved and be given the spirit in their hearts as a pledge of their salvtaion is not going to help. They have to repent themselves. if they want the spirit of God.

as for gifting, The spirit gives gifts as he wills.. If someone does not have a particular gift, it does not mean they are not saved or do not have the spirit

That is exactly my point. There are those in this thread who state that if a believer does not have the gift of tongues, then they are somehow "lesser" believers. Somehow, we don't believe enough, or have enough faith.... oh, they won't say we are not "saved", but they say things like

It's all about whether you're going to be powerful and effective in the Spirit, or whether you're just going to have the Holy Spirit.

To me, this teaching is, first of all, wrong.. and secondly, it is potentially devastating to a new believer... either the new believer must somehow 'show' that they have received the Spirit, or they become convinced that they are not, and will not, be truly saved.

The truth is, EVERY believer that follows Jesus and is baptized WILL receive the Spirit. It is a promise from Jesus himself.

This whole argument about whether a believer speaks in tongues does nothing but cause dissent and is a stumbling block to young believers. It's the old "I was baptized by Paul, so I'm a better Christian than you" argument all over again. It seems that human vanity never changes.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Laying on of hands is a ceremonial law just as water baptism applied when a new believer desires to work as a member of the kingdom of priests to get out the gospel . All believer are potential priest in that way . Because it is ceremonial it as a shadow it can never make the worshipper perfect. We walk by faith the unseen eternal and not by sight, the temporal

Commissioning into the prieshood is conveyed at water baptism, as it was with Jesus, IMO.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That is exactly my point. There are those in this thread who state that if a believer does not have the gift of tongues, then they are somehow "lesser" believers. Somehow, we don't believe enough, or have enough faith.... oh, they won't say we are not "saved", but they say things like

To me, this teaching is, first of all, wrong.. and secondly, it is potentially devastating to a new believer... either the new believer must somehow 'show' that they have received the Spirit, or they become convinced that they are not, and will not, be truly saved.

The truth is, EVERY believer that follows Jesus and is baptized WILL receive the Spirit. It is a promise from Jesus himself.

This whole argument about whether a believer speaks in tongues does nothing but cause dissent and is a stumbling block to young believers. It's the old "I was baptized by Paul, so I'm a better Christian than you" argument all over again. It seems that human vanity never changes.

I have been told flat out i am not saved because i do not have gift of languages (i will call it by its proper modern name) and others, my aunt walked away from god because of them. Its sad. And dangerous and from satan himself.

 

[Ralph-]

There are those in this thread who state that if a believer does not have the gift of tongues, then they are somehow "lesser" believers.

First, tongues is only one of several spiritual empowerments and not everyone receives that gift. Secondly, the "lesser" more immature believer is the one who does not love.

Somehow, we don't believe enough, or have enough faith....

Maybe the reason a person does not have the power of the Holy Spirit is not enough faith, maybe that's not the reason. But, certainly, if one is bashing the gifts that is a lack of faith in receiving whatever spiritual power/gift God has assigned to them to walk in.

oh, they won't say we are not "saved", but they say things like

Only a lack of God's love in them would bring their relationship with God into question. That is the only truly reliable measure of one's relationship with God. The new creation is the evidence of God's work in a person's life, not their gift.

...it is potentially devastating to a new believer... either the new believer must somehow 'show' that they have received the Spirit, or they become convinced that they are not, and will not, be truly saved.

The Bible does exhort us to move onto the maturity of godly character so we can have assurance that we are really saved. I'm not aware of any passage of scripture that explains salvation itself, or maturity is measured by your spiritual gifting and empowering.

What matters is that you love as God loves (as opposed to how humans love). In fact, love is what energizes your gifts.

The truth is, EVERY believer that follows Jesus and is baptized WILL receive the Spirit. It is a promise from Jesus himself.

All believers possess the Holy Spirit, that is a fact. All believers are baptized into the body of Christ by virtue of receiving the seal of the Holy Spirit. Where we differ is in how the Spirit will manifest and overflow in our service to and worship of God. Note: 'overflow', as in 'filled up'.

This whole argument about whether a believer speaks in tongues does nothing but cause dissent and is a stumbling block to young believers. It's the old "I was baptized by Paul, so I'm a better Christian than you" argument all over again. It seems that human vanity never changes.

You either have the gift of tongues or you don't. It's really that simple. If God wanted you to have it as part of your specific, assigned task in the body of Christ, and you believe that he gives the gift(s), you'd have it.


This thread shows why the church is not gifted and does not operate in the gifts of the Spirit. We have been taught to not believe that God gives them. Which instantly locks you out from them. You receive from God through faith. Apart from rare exceptions, the things of God are secured through your believing. Just as salvation itself is not secured until you believe you can have it and ask for it in faith, so it is with the gifts. You will not receive any empowering of the Spirit that you do not believe exists, or that you have concluded you can not have.

 

[Ralph-]

Commissioning into the prieshood is conveyed at water baptism, as it was with Jesus, IMO.

The passing on of the anointing for service to God is given through the laying on of hands.

 

[Ralph-]

I have been told flat out i am not saved because i do not have gift of languages (i will call it by its proper modern name)

But you know that to be an erroneous teaching so what does it matter? Everyone who hears this needs to just move on.

and others, my aunt walked away from god because of them. Its sad. And dangerous and from satan himself.

To me, if anyone would surrender their salvation over tongues, they got a lot more going on than just the issue of tongues. But Jesus did point out that it is the less firmly planted word of God in a person (less firmly planted because of the soil it's in, not because of the word itself) that can be uprooted from a person. Weaker believers are the ones in danger of not abiding in the gospel. That's why we are exhorted to move on to maturity where the word is deeply rooted in us and not able to be uprooted.

 

[garee]

I often make the distinction between 'Spirit sealed' and 'Spirit filled'.

All believers are Spirit sealed. Not all are Spirit filled.

Power comes from being filled with the Holy Spirit, not just being sealed with the Holy Spirit.

Same difference. God in us who works with us as Emanuel .

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

 

[DJ2]

First, tongues is only one of several spiritual empowerments and not everyone receives that gift. Secondly, the "lesser" more immature believer is the one who does not love.




Maybe the reason a person does not have the power of the Holy Spirit is not enough faith, maybe that's not the reason. But, certainly, if one is bashing the gifts that is a lack of faith in receiving whatever spiritual power/gift God has assigned to them to walk in.




Only a lack of God's love in them would bring their relationship with God into question. That is the only truly reliable measure of one's relationship with God. The new creation is the evidence of God's work in a person's life, not their gift.




The Bible does exhort us to move onto the maturity of godly character so we can have assurance that we are really saved. I'm not aware of any passage of scripture that explains salvation itself, or maturity is measured by your spiritual gifting and empowering.

What matters is that you love as God loves (as opposed to how humans love). In fact, love is what energizes your gifts.




All believers possess the Holy Spirit, that is a fact. All believers are baptized into the body of Christ by virtue of receiving the seal of the Holy Spirit. Where we differ is in how the Spirit will manifest and overflow in our service to and worship of God. Note: 'overflow', as in 'filled up'.



You either have the gift of tongues or you don't. It's really that simple. If God wanted you to have it as part of your specific, assigned task in the body of Christ, and you believe that he gives the gift(s), you'd have it.


This thread shows why the church is not gifted and does not operate in the gifts of the Spirit. We have been taught to not believe that God gives them. Which instantly locks you out from them. You receive from God through faith. Apart from rare exceptions, the things of God are secured through your believing. Just as salvation itself is not secured until you believe you can have it and ask for it in faith, so it is with the gifts. You will not receive any empowering of the Spirit that you do not believe exists, or that you have concluded you can not have.

You either have the gift of tongues or you don't

No. The point is are people speaking in tongues or just babbling. If they are truly involved in the physical supernatural manifestation of the Holy Spirit then we should stop in our tracks and exam the issue further. But if all that is really happening is mindless babble then we should avoid such nonsense and false teaching. The issue of the New Testament age of the miraculous continuing into modern times is but a distraction and obvious tomfoolery. A claim without merit does not deserve a response.

You do not claim to have a physical supernatural gift, you simply express the gift and it is known. Mindless babbling is not a gift. Labeling mindless babble an act of God is fraud.

 

[garee]

Tongues are for unbelievers because they are not able to understand the word of God, because God is a foreigner to them. Not being able to understand what someone says is the sign that they are a foreigner to you, and you to them.

"11If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. "-1 Corinthians 14:11

A person must look to the foundation spoken of in Isaiah 28 in order to understand 1 Corinthians 14.

Tongues or stammering lips which are mocking lips... is God bringing prophecy in other languages other than the Hebrew. It is a sign that points to those rebels who will not hear prophecy. But rather follow after the oral tradition of men that make prophecy without effect.

The sign is not assigned to those who do hear and believe prophecy as God interprets His word in their own language. Knowing this first no prophecy comes by a private interpretation. (someone else) God is the only interpreter. He knows all the language in the world.

2 Peter 1:19-21 King James Version (KJV)
We have also a surer word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation". For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

In regard to 1 Corinthians 14;11...it is a two-way street as are all gifts not seen, (no such thing as a sign gift .We walk by faith the unseen eternal. But rather as God interprets his prophecy to one giving him ears to hear what the Spirit is saying and when the one spoken too speaks in his language he in no barbarians to the other. Supernaturally no language barriers. This is while God was still brining new prophecy. In that way the gospel can go out in an actual relationship of two understanding each other. As one man was moved to hear prophecy the other was also moved.

Today they have machines that can translate one language from another.

That's why someone must interpret messages given in tongues among believers. Veiled, not understandable messages are for unbelievers who do not have the Spirit and can not grasp the word of God:

"14The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. "-1 Corinthians 2:14

Yes the unbeleiving Jew in whom the sign (mocking lips of God) is directed at are those that cannot understand because they refuse to believe prophecy in exchange for the oral tradition as laws of men ,it make prophecy without effect

While the unveiled, understandable word of God is for believers who do have the Spirit of God to know the thoughts of God:

"13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words."-1 Corinthians 2:13

Again the foundation must first be considerd

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would "not hear". Isaiah 28

They were not what Hebrews 4 calls mixing faith (the unseen) in what they did hear from the prophecy which according to Hebrews 4 means their hearts remained hard and did not receive the rest available when we do mix faith in what we hear.

But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Isaiah 28

To fall backward is to indicate they are under judgement and the sign points to their rebellion. No outward sihn for thos who receive prophecy . A new heart and a desire to do His will yes

 

[peacefulbeliever]

First, tongues is only one of several spiritual empowerments and not everyone receives that gift. Secondly, the "lesser" more immature believer is the one who does not love.
Tongues is not a gift. Secondly, there are NO "lesser" believers. All believers are born again of the Spirit, filled with the Spirit, baptized with holy spirit, given the gift of holy spirit.
Maybe the reason a person does not have the power of the Holy Spirit is not enough faith, maybe that's not the reason. But, certainly, if one is bashing the gifts that is a lack of faith in receiving whatever spiritual power/gift God has assigned to them to walk in.

Again, tongues is not a "gift". Every believer has the ability to operate the nine manifestations of the spirit.

Only a lack of God's love in them would bring their relationship with God into question. That is the only truly reliable measure of one's relationship with God. The new creation is the evidence of God's work in a person's life, not their gift.

The Bible does exhort us to move onto the maturity of godly character so we can have assurance that we are really saved. I'm not aware of any passage of scripture that explains salvation itself, or maturity is measured by your spiritual gifting and empowering.

What matters is that you love as God loves (as opposed to how humans love). In fact, love is what energizes your gifts.

It is God who energizes the believer . . . all the gifts, the power, and the manifestations are given and energized by God. NO believer is better than any other believer.

All believers possess the Holy Spirit, that is a fact. All believers are baptized into the body of Christ by virtue of receiving the seal of the Holy Spirit. Where we differ is in how the Spirit will manifest and overflow in our service to and worship of God. Note: 'overflow', as in 'filled up'.

Yes, all believers have the gift of holy spirit. All believers are baptized into the body of Christ, "if so be the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwell in them" via the gift of holy spirit.

You either have the gift of tongues or you don't. It's really that simple. If God wanted you to have it as part of your specific, assigned task in the body of Christ, and you believe that he gives the gift(s), you'd have it.

Every believer can manifest the gift of holy spirit which includes the nine manifestations listed in 1 Cor. 12:8-10. God designed spiritual matters in the church whether gift ministries (v 4 individual gifts; Eph. 4:7-13); administrations (services) and the energizing of said ministries, services, etc. to build up the body of Christ . . . the Corinthians were getting prideful over these spiritual matters and thinking themselves better than others . . . that is the whole point of the doctrine (12), the reproof (13) and the correction (14) in these 3 chapters of 1 Corinthians. They were getting puffed up and not giving credit where credit was due - It is God who gives and energizes - NOT ourselves.

This thread shows why the church is not gifted and does not operate in the gifts of the Spirit. We have been taught to not believe that God gives them. Which instantly locks you out from them. You receive from God through faith. Apart from rare exceptions, the things of God are secured through your believing. Just as salvation itself is not secured until you believe you can have it and ask for it in faith, so it is with the gifts. You will not receive any empowering of the Spirit that you do not believe exists, or that you have concluded you can not have.

All believers are empowered by God. All believers have the ability, the power, to operate the manifestations of the Spirit.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

A person must look to the foundation spoken of in Isaiah 28 in order to understand 1 Corinthians 14.

Tongues or stammering lips which are mocking lips... is God bringing prophecy in other languages other than the Hebrew. It is a sign that points to those rebels who will not hear prophecy. But rather follow after the oral tradition of men that make prophecy without effect.

The sign is not assigned to those who do hear and believe prophecy as God interprets His word in their own language. Knowing this first no prophecy comes by a private interpretation. (someone else) God is the only interpreter. He knows all the language in the world.

Tongues are a sign to those who believe not - What does it show them? If done correctly (v27,28) and not all at once (v23,24) - it shows them that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwell in a believer via the gift of holy spirit.

2 Peter 1:19-21

King James Version (KJV)
We have also a surer word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that "no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation". For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

In regard to 1 Corinthians 14;11...it is a two-way street as are all gifts not seen, (no such thing as a sign gift .We walk by faith the unseen eternal. But rather as God interprets his prophecy to one giving him ears to hear what the Spirit is saying and when the one spoken too speaks in his language he in no barbarians to the other. Supernaturally no language barriers. This is while God was still brining new prophecy. In that way the gospel can go out in an actual relationship of two understanding each other. As one man was moved to hear prophecy the other was also moved.

Today they have machines that can translate one language from another.
Yes the unbeleiving Jew in whom the sign (mocking lips of God) is directed at are those that cannot understand because they refuse to believe prophecy in exchange for the oral tradition as laws of men ,it make prophecy without effect

Again the foundation must first be considerd

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would "not hear". Isaiah 28

They were not what Hebrews 4 calls mixing faith (the unseen) in what they did hear from the prophecy which according to Hebrews 4 means their hearts remained hard and did not receive the rest available when we do mix faith in what we hear.

But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Isaiah 28

To fall backward is to indicate they are under judgement and the sign points to their rebellion. No outward sihn for thos who receive prophecy . A new heart and a desire to do His will yes

There are it, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaks a barbarian, and he that speaks shall be a barbarian unto me. So you, forasmuch as you are zealous of spiritual things seek that you may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 1 Cor. 14:10-12 . . . . bolded is the whole point of the previous verses.

He that speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but he that prophesies edifies the church. I would that you all spake with tongues, but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may received edifying. 1 Cor. 14:4,5 . . . bolded is saying the same thing as above.

 

[notuptome]

Tongues are a sign to those who believe not - What does it show them? If done correctly (v27,28) and not all at once (v23,24) - it shows them that the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwell in a believer via the gift of holy spirit.

Clearly you do not understand this passage correctly. It is not written to the NT church but to Israel. Israel would have understood the implications regarding captivity which is completely foreign to the NT church.

Tongues were a sign to Israel and a sign of impending judgment from Jehovah God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[shrume]

Clearly you do not understand this passage correctly.

Oh, the irony...

It is not written to the NT church but to Israel. Israel would have understood the implications regarding captivity which is completely foreign to the NT church.

1 Cor 14:
2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

I Corinthians is written to the Christian church.

Tongues were a sign to Israel and a sign of impending judgment from Jehovah God.

The manifestation of tongues should be a sign to any unbeliever.

Concerning Paul's quote of Isa 28:

21) In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

That quote from Isaiah was originally written to Israel. Since they failed to follow God, they were conquered by the Assyrians, who spoke to them in the Assyrian language, which the Israelites did not know.

But verse 22 is written to the church.

22) Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Paul is letting the church know that tongues are a sign to those who don't believe. When the manifestation of tongues with interpretation is operated properly in the Christian church, it should be obvious that the power of God is present.

This is still true:

1 Cor 14:
5) I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Speaking in tongues to yourself edifies you (1 Cor 14:4). Tongues with interpretation edifies the church. As does prophecy.

 

[KelbyofGod]

I don't understand why it matters. It seems weird that they necessarily would be separate. I understand that scripture contradicts both formulas, but IMO GOD always does things to screw with carnal mindsets.

HeRose,
What do you mean by "both formulas"?

 

[KelbyofGod]

It's all about whether you're going to be powerful and effective in the Spirit, or whether you're just going to have the Holy Spirit.


“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized witha water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

8 ...you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”-Acts 2:4-5,8


The power of effective witness (in daily living and/or a spiritual gift) comes from being filled with the Holy Spirit, not just possessing the Holy Spirit. Most Christians are only taught to possess the Holy Spirit in salvation, not taught to be filled with Him in power.

Out of curiosity, what do you think happens when a believer receives the power?
-Kelby

 

[Nehemiah6]

Just wondering if everyone is on the same page. Receiving the Spirit at salvation is not the same thing as the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

1. Receiving the Holy Spirit is the same as baptism WITH the Spirit. Christ *pours out* the Holy Spirit on the sinner who repents and believes -- ...the Holy Ghost; Which he shed [Gk ἐξέχεεν (execheen) = poured out] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour... (Tit 3:5,6)

2. Then there is the baptism BY the Holy Spirit, in which the Spirit joins every believer (member) to the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13)
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we beJews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

3, Then we have the Pentecostal concept of "the baptism IN the Holy Spirit" which means that a Christian speaks in tongues. But Paul says (a) not all will speak in tongues and (2) tongues will vanish way. So this idea has no basis in Scripture, but for Pentecostals and Charismatics, these are "spirit-filled" Christians.

4. Finally we have the "filling with the Holy Spirit" (Eph 5:18-21) which means the Christian is fully CONTROLLED by the Holy Spirit, and that is also when that person is empowered by the Spirit to speak the Word of God boldly.
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:31).

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

HeRose,
What do you mean by "both formulas"?

Some scripture indicates that the spirit is received at baptism, while in some the spirit was received by praying or laying on of hands.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

1. Receiving the Holy Spirit is the same as baptism WITH the Spirit. Christ *pours out* the Holy Spirit on the sinner who repents and believes -- ...the Holy Ghost; Which he shed [Gk ἐξέχεεν (execheen) = poured out] on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour... (Tit 3:5,6)

2. Then there is the baptism BY the Holy Spirit, in which the Spirit joins every believer (member) to the Body of Christ (1 Cor 12:13)
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we beJews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

3, Then we have the Pentecostal concept of "the baptism IN the Holy Spirit" which means that a Christian speaks in tongues. But Paul says (a) not all will speak in tongues and (2) tongues will vanish way. So this idea has no basis in Scripture, but for Pentecostals and Charismatics, these are "spirit-filled" Christians.

4. Finally we have the "filling with the Holy Spirit" (Eph 5:18-21) which means the Christian is fully CONTROLLED by the Holy Spirit, and that is also when that person is empowered by the Spirit to speak the Word of God boldly.
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:31).

Just wondering - after saying all of the above - are you saying that all 4 instances listed above are the same and received at the time one believes in Jesus Christ? "Baptized in holy spirit" = "receiving" the holy spirit = equals "sealed" with the holy spirit = "filled" with holy spirit . . . all these terms are synonymous.

The "Pentecostal concept" - What exactly is that? Speaking by inspiration - Paul said - I would that you all spake in tongues; (1 Cor. 14:5a). would - thelo - 1. to will, have in mind, intend; a) to be resolved or determined, to purpose; to desire, to wish, to love; c) to like to do a thing, be fond of doing; d) to take delight in, have pleasure . . . so it seems that God wants us, desires for us, has determined for us to speak in tongues. 1 Cor. 13:8 - Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. . . . 10) But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 12) For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. I know that some say - when that which is perfect is come - relates to the scripture, but others which say that that section refers to Jesus Christ (I am one) . . . I don't see scripture "face to face" but I will see Christ "face to face" . . . that's why I believe that "that which is perfect is come" is speaking about Jesus Christ - I just don't see a page of scripture "face to face".

What do you mean by a Christian being fully "CONTROLLED" by the Holy Spirit? Speaking the word with all boldness - the disciples spoke with all boldness after receiving power from on high (Luke 24:49; Acts 1:8), i.e. the gift of holy spirit. (Acts 2:38)

 

[Ralph-]

Out of curiosity, what do you think happens when a believer receives the power?
-Kelby

Supernatural ability and success to work the things of God.

It's the difference between working hard all night fishing and catching nothing and setting your nets down and having such a catch of fish that it breaks the nets (Luke 5:4-6).

 

[Ralph-]

Some scripture indicates that the spirit is received at baptism, while in some the spirit was received by praying or laying on of hands.

In Acts 19, Paul lays his hands on the Ephesian believers to receive the Spirit because they had already been water baptized.