A place for rapture questions

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Deade,

The dead are asleep. Paul may have said: to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. OK, to close your eyes at night: presto - it is morning. It is the same principal.

The term "sleep" is only referring to the body and not the spirit. At the time of death for the believer, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of Christ, while the body is buried and decays. It is the body that is sleeping. In support of this we have a lot of scripture which demonstrates the conscious awareness of the spirit after death.

"When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child’s father and mother. Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. “Stop wailing,” Jesus said. “She is not dead but asleep. They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. But he took her by the hand and said, “My child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat. "

The scripture above states that the girls spirit returned to her body, which would demonstrate that it had left at the time of death. It was her body that was asleep. In addition we have the event of the rich man and Lazarus of whom the scripture states that both died, and yet their spirits were found under the earth in Sheol/Hades. The rich man who was/is in torment was having a conversation with Abraham and had all of his senses, as he could see, was thirsty and could feel pain. If you discount the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, all you are doing is getting rid of the proof.


We also have Moses and Elijah having a conversation with Christ regarding His departure when He was transfigured into His glorified state on the mountain. And we have Jesus telling the man next to him that, "today, you will be will me in paradise," which was speaking about the departure of their spirits at the time of death to that same place where the rich man and Lazarus were, which was a place of comfort/paradise. And there are many other examples.

When the believer dies, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, conscious and aware and waiting for the resurrection from that side, while we wait for it from here. I would also mention what Paul said when speaking about the hero's of faith saying "since we have such a great cloud of witnesses" which would infer that those who have died are conscious and aware and are observing the rest of us who are having faith.

We also have the example of the 5th seal where those who will have been killed on the earth are having a conversation with the Lord, asking him how long before He avenges their blood on the earth. This will take place under the altar in heaven and they are given white robes to wear.

How is it that you and others ignore all of these scriptures to prove that the spirits of those who die are sleeping?

 

[Deade]

Acts 7 and 8 says nothing other than a vision of Stephen and a statement from him for God to receive his spirit. The Father does preserve the spirits but they are not conscience. Here are some references to the unconscious saints.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6: “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”

Psalms 6:5: “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”

Psalms 30:9: “What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?”

Psalms 115:17: “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

Isaiah 38:18: “For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.”

Psalms 88:10-12: “Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Psalms 115:17: “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

 

[Ahwatukee]

Acts 7 and 8 says nothing other than a vision of Stephen and a statement from him for God to receive his spirit. The Father does preserve the spirits but they are not conscience. Here are some references to the unconscious saints.

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6: “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.”

Psalms 6:5: “For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?”

Psalms 30:9: “What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?”

Psalms 115:17: “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

Isaiah 38:18: “For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.”

Psalms 88:10-12: “Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Psalms 115:17: “The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.”

None of the scriptures that you provided above support the spirit being asleep in dust of the earth. I anticipated that you would use Ecclesiastes as your proof, which doesn't say what you think it says. Furthermore, you did not respond to any of the scriptures that I provided which very clearly demonstrate conscious awareness of the spirit after death. In fact you ignore them. You do what so many others do which is to jump to another scripture instead of addressing the ones that were given to you as proof.

What you are teaching is a well known false teaching and you are just repeating it.

 

[Noose]

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

In the scripture above, Jesus told His disciples that His Father's house has many rooms and that He was going there to prepare places for believers. Then He said that he would come back to take us to be with Him so that we can be where He is, which would of course be to the Father's house, which can only be referring to heaven. Therefore, Jesus is going to return and take us to the Father's house which is in heaven.

And where is the Father's house?

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as the Son over God's house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

Ephesians 2:21
In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

Heaven is the hearts of believers and no one is flying off. Believers are the many rooms Jesus was talking about.
Take note.

 

[Ahwatukee]

And where is the Father's house?

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as the Son over God's house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.

Ephesians 2:22
And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

Ephesians 2:21
In Him the whole building is fitted together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

Heaven is the hearts of believers and no one is flying off. Take note.

Noose,

You need to learn to rightly divide the truth of God's word.

All of those scriptures that you provided above are in reference to the believers body as the temple of God. However, John 14:1-3 is not referring to the believers body as a temple. Here is the scripture again:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

First, we see that Jesus said "My Father's house has many rooms" and that He was going there to prepare dwelling places for us at the Father's house. This would demonstrate that Jesus was speaking of going to a literal place, the Father's house, which is in heaven, and that He was not speaking about the human body as a temple for God to dwell in. Jesus also said that He was coming back to get us to take us to those dwelling places.

Why do and others fight against the truth so much?

 

[Deade]

The scripture above states that the girls spirit returned to her body, which would demonstrate that it had left at the time of death.

Okay, you want to address the scriptures although you did give them. Luke 8:52 "And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth." This scripture shows us nothing about the state of the dead.

We also have Moses and Elijah having a conversation with Christ regarding His departure when He was transfigured into His glorified state on the mountain.

The transfiguration was a vision: Matt. 17:9 "And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead."

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man was just parable. Even if you insist it was not a parable how can you draw doctrine from one occurrence in scripture. We are warned not to: Matt. 18:16 "But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established."
2 Cor. 13:1 "This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established."

The ball is in your court.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Okay, you want to address the scriptures although you did give them. Luke 8:52 "And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth." This scripture shows us nothing about the state of the dead

You are still not addressing John 14:1-3, which is the scripture that I provided.

 

[Deade]

When the believer dies, their spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord, conscious and aware and waiting for the resurrection from that side, while we wait for it from here. I would also mention what Paul said when speaking about the hero's of faith saying "since we have such a great cloud of witnesses" which would infer that those who have died are conscious and aware and are observing the rest of us who are having faith.

The great cloud of witnesses does not infer that at all. Heb. 11:39, 40 "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." This tells us they will not be raised before us!

We also have the example of the 5th seal where those who will have been killed on the earth are having a conversation with the Lord, asking him how long before He avenges their blood on the earth. This will take place under the altar in heaven and they are given white robes to wear.

I have covered this in relation to God being outside of time: Those voices from under the alter and the white robes are from the future.

John 14:1-3 is talking about the mansions that Christ will bring in New Jerusalem.

 

[Noose]

Noose,

You need to learn to rightly divide the truth of God's word.

All of those scriptures that you provided above are in reference to the believers body as the temple of God. However, John 14:1-3 is not referring to the believers body as a temple. Here is the scripture again:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

First, we see that Jesus said "My Father's house has many rooms" and that He was going there to prepare dwelling places for us at the Father's house. This would demonstrate that Jesus was speaking of going to a literal place, the Father's house, which is in heaven, and that He was not speaking about the human body as a temple for God to dwell in. Jesus also said that He was coming back to get us to take us to those dwelling places.

Why do and others fight against the truth so much?

You are the one who needs to divide correctly because the temple of God and the House of God are one and the same thing found in heaven aka the hearts of the believers here on earth:

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as the Son over God's house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

Still, no flying off.

 

[Nehemiah6]

You are the one who needs to divide correctly because the temple of God and the House of God are one and the same thing found in heaven aka the hearts of the believers here on earth...

That is only one application of the term "temple of God" (house of God) and it is metaphorical. But that is not the limit of its use.

1. There will be a third "bricks and mortar" temple on earth in the near future, which will be desecrated by the Antichrist and subsequently destroyed.

2. Then there will be a fourth "bricks and mortar" temple on earth which will be eternal and which is described in Ezekiel.

3. There is also an actual sanctuary in Heaven at this time, and there is also an actual High Priest in Heaven at this time. Christ has entered into this sanctuary not made with hands in order to be the Mediator and High Priest of His people. After the New Heavens and the New Earth are established, there will be no need for this temple, and God and the Lamb will be the temple in the New Jerusalem.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I have covered this in relation to God being outside of time: Those voices from under the alter and the white robes are from the future.

Agreed, that event is going to happen in the future during the time of God's wrath upon the earth. But the point remains the same in that, those under the altar will have been killed, yet will be conscious and aware after death. Therefore, whether present or future, you have not supported your claim.

John 14:1-3 is talking about the mansions that Christ will bring in New Jerusalem.

Is that how you interpret and break down scripture as proof? You provided no proof whatsoever. All you did is make a statement similar to "see I told you so." Here let me do it for you, since you seem to be incapable of do so:

"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you?And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

* My Father's house has many rooms

The Father's house can be referring to no other place but heaven, for that is where God dwells

* I am going there to prepare a place for you

Jesus said that He is going there (to the Father's house) to prepare a place for you (all believers).

* I will come back to take you with me so that you may also be where I am

Regarding your claim above stating that Christ will bring in the new Jerusalem, the scripture states that He is coming back to get us and take us back with Him so that where He is we (believers) may be also, which would be in the Father's house. Therefore He is coming to get us and take us to the Father's house, not bringing the Father's house to us.

Regarding you and others, John the apostle was correct when he said the following saying:

"We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood."

Instead of being a Berean and searching out the information you are being given, you spend all your efforts on false apologetic's defending the false teachings that you have adopted.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Noose,

You are the one who needs to divide correctly because the temple of God and the House of God are one and the same thing found in heaven aka the hearts of the believers here on earth:

God dwells in a literal heaven with a literal throne room, with myriads of angels, etc. In John 14:1-3 Jesus stated that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us, literally "dwelling places." All you have done is to misapply scripture. You are attempting to take scripture that refers to the human body as the temple, the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and apply it to Jesus reference to literal dwelling places in heaven. But what do you do instead? Twist the scriptures to make them fit what you want it to say.

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ is faithful as the Son over God's house. And we are His house, if we hold firmly to our confidence and the hope of which we boast.

John 14:23

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him.

I don't know why you keep saying "Still no flying off," because as I told you before, those scriptures above don't have anything to do with being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and that because you don't pay attention to anything.

Those scriptures above are talking about God indwelling believers. The reference to the Lord and the Father coming to "make our home with him" is referring to God indwelling the believer, which you continue to misapply to John 14:1-3, which again, is speaking about Jesus preparing literal dwelling places for believer in heaven.

 

[Noose]

That is only one application of the term "temple of God" (house of God) and it is metaphorical. But that is not the limit of its use.

1. There will be a third "bricks and mortar" temple on earth in the near future, which will be desecrated by the Antichrist and subsequently destroyed.

2. Then there will be a fourth "bricks and mortar" temple on earth which will be eternal and which is described in Ezekiel.

3. There is also an actual sanctuary in Heaven at this time, and there is also an actual High Priest in Heaven at this time. Christ has entered into this sanctuary not made with hands in order to be the Mediator and High Priest of His people. After the New Heavens and the New Earth are established, there will be no need for this temple, and God and the Lamb will be the temple in the New Jerusalem.

Wrong. The only temple being built is this one:

Eph 2: 22 And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

And how long will this temple/kingdom last?

Isa 9:7There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of Davidand over his kingdom, To establish it and to upholdit with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Luke 1:33
and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. His kingdom will never end!"

Dan 2:44"In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever.

Anyone waiting for "bricks and mortar" temple are in for a very very very looooong wait.

 

[Noose]

Noose,



God dwells in a literal heaven with a literal throne room, with myriads of angels, etc. In John 14:1-3 Jesus stated that He was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us, literally "dwelling places." All you have done is to misapply scripture. You are attempting to take scripture that refers to the human body as the temple, the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and apply it to Jesus reference to literal dwelling places in heaven. But what do you do instead? Twist the scriptures to make them fit what you want it to say.

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I don't know why you keep saying "Still no flying off," because as I told you before, those scriptures above don't have anything to do with being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and that because you don't pay attention to anything.

Those scriptures above are talking about God indwelling believers. The reference to the Lord and the Father coming to "make our home with him" is referring to God indwelling the believer, which you continue to misapply to John 14:1-3, which again, is speaking about Jesus preparing literal dwelling places for believer in heaven.

Nope,
The scriptures talks of God's house which is clearly on earth, not unless you are trying to say God has two houses because we have established that the house of God as we speak now is on the earth and it will be here forever- only the heavens and earth will pass but it will remain.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Nope,
The scriptures talks of God's house which is clearly on earth, not unless you are trying to say God has two houses because we have established that the house of God as we speak now is on the earth and it will be here forever- only the heavens and earth will pass but it will remain.

The Spirit dwells in believers which is called a house and there is a literal heaven, with a throne and myriads of angels, which is also, as Jesus said, In my Father's house. It is the context that determines whether the human body is being referred to as God's house vs. His literal residence in heaven. Use your head!

There is a a current heaven and earth and after the millennial period, there will be a new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem. I'm not going to debate with you any more, because you are apposed to the truth. You're like a little kid with the response of "Nope."

Time for you to go on ignore!

 

[Noose]

The Spirit dwells in believers which is called a house and there is a literal heaven, with a throne and myriads of angels, which is also, as Jesus said, In my Father's house. It is the context that determines whether the human body is being referred to as God's house vs. His literal residence in heaven. Use your head!

There is a a current heaven and earth and after the millennial period, there will be a new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem. I'm not going to debate with you any more, because you are apposed to the truth. You're like a little kid with the response of "Nope."

Time for you to go on ignore!

Still mumbling from error to another?


Heb 12:18You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm; 19to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard it begged that no further word be spoken to them, 20because they could not bear what was commanded: “If even an animal touches the mountain, it must be stoned to death.”[SUP]c[/SUP]21The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, “I am trembling with fear.”[SUP]d[/SUP]22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.25See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? 26At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”[SUP]e[/SUP] 27The words “once more” indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.28Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, 29for our “God is a consuming fire.”


Were these people in heaven or earth?
So you wanted to see angles on earth, there you go.
Again, heaven is right here with us, in our hearts, not space and no one is flying off.

It has been nice talking to you.

 

[Wall]

For those of you who think we go to heaven at the rapture event...

JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

What do you do with scripture above?

 

[RickyZ]

2 things ...

1. this speaks of the present. The 'rapture' (a misnomer) is still future.

2. The Bible is full of seemingly conflicting scriptures. It is human nature to latch onto one of these scriptures and use it to prove the seemingly conflicting scriptures false. We find that is much easier than attempting to discern and wrap our heads around how they could all be true. Which is what you are doing here.

 

[Wall]

2 things ...

1. this speaks of the present. The 'rapture' (a misnomer) is still future.

2. The Bible is full of seemingly conflicting scriptures. It is human nature to latch onto one of these scriptures and use it to prove the seemingly conflicting scriptures false. We find that is much easier than attempting to discern and wrap our heads around how they could all be true. Which is what you are doing here.

Guilty!!! I do believe all scripture to be true. I cant find conflicting scriptures

 

[Nehemiah6]

For those of you who think we go to heaven at the rapture event...

JOHN 3 [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? [13] And NO MAN HATH ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN, BUT HE THAT CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

What do you do with scripture above?

What you do is RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH. Interpret it properly.

So what was Christ teaching us here? Given the fact that Enoch and Elijah had been taken up to Heaven supernaturally, it could not mean that the saints would not go to Heaven. What He meant was that His own ascension -- after His resurrection -- would be unique.

He would ascend as only God can ascend, and would be accompanied by a host of angels (called a cloud) as He returned to Heaven (from where He had come). That is why He said "even the Son of Man which is [PRESENT TENSE] in Heaven". How could the Son of Man be present on earth and in Heaven at one and the same time? Because He is God.

And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. (Lk 24:51)

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. (Acts 1:9)

Did you notice how unique was the ascension of Christ? He was "carried up" to Heaven by "a cloud" of angels. This was totally unique because He is the Son of God as well as the Son of Man.