GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

[Endoscopy]

So then you agree, there was no Law of God that condemned Jesus. So when the Pharisees said "We have a Law" they weren't talking about God's Laws, because God's Laws didn't condemn Jesus. So then Jesus was right when he said the following.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

There is no Law of God that teaches we should execute folks for speaking the truth. But the Pharisees had a long standing religious "LAW" of killing folks for telling the truth. their Law called for the murder of the Prophets, Jesus, Stephen and many others.

This is my whole point. The "many" who come in His Name, who preach that the Pharisees were trying to "earn" Salvation by following the "letter of God's Laws" are preaching a false doctrine whether they know it or not. Given that I see this truth, shall I not share it with others? Even if I know they also, will resent me for telling them this truth?

Wiggle wiggle wiggle
You are straining for a gnat in a mansion. Twisting facts to suit your needs. They used the law to condemn Jesus with His claim to be the Christ. They did this assuming He was just a man. They had their minds closed. Possibly by God. The purpose Jesus came was to die on the cross. Remember on the cross He said, "Father forgive them for they don't know what they do."

 

[PS]

So then you agree, there was no Law of God that condemned Jesus. So when the Pharisees said "We have a Law" they weren't talking about God's Laws, because God's Laws didn't condemn Jesus. So then Jesus was right when he said the following.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

There is no Law of God that teaches we should execute folks for speaking the truth. But the Pharisees had a long standing religious "LAW" of killing folks for telling the truth. their Law called for the murder of the Prophets, Jesus, Stephen and many others.

This is my whole point. The "many" who come in His Name, who preach that the Pharisees were trying to "earn" Salvation by following the "letter of God's Laws" are preaching a false doctrine whether they know it or not. Given that I see this truth, shall I not share it with others? Even if I know they also, will resent me for telling them this truth?

A good example of two Gods. It is worth considering who the God of the Pharisees was, for their god was the god of the people including Paul. They all followed the same Law that leads to their condemnation.

 

[PS]

Paul’s reasons why he might have confidence in the flesh.



This is why you shouldn't listen to religious man for your understanding. You should just trust Him and let His Word teach you.

To come to the conclusion above you must first reject all the Prophets prophesies about the "Priests". There are dozens as I have posted before, so I'll just show one.

Jer. 5:30 A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; (Not God's) and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

From the very beginning of the New Testament it was known to the "Godly Jews" who the Pharisees were regarding their religion..

Matt. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Quite a contrast between what the Bible actually says, and how Barclay describes them. So who should we listen too, Barclay or the Word's of God?

It is true that "many" who come in His Name, preach that the Pharisees were this obedient faithful "elite" sect of Jews who had devoted themselves to the very detail of the Law, "Letter of the Law".

You preach, as well as many on this forum, that the Pharisees were devoted to God and His Commandments.

But Jesus says;

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. (Not from God)

It is this religion that Paul, as a Pharisee, was zealous for and he said as much.

Gal. 1:13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.


Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

I could go on and on PS. You are trying to paint a picture of the Pharisees which is just not true according to the Bible. Not because it goes against my beliefs, but because it clearly goes against the Bibles description of the Pharisees. These preachers you trust refused to acknowledge any of God's Words regarding the Pharisees. What kind of preacher does this?

Paul was a good Jew, a Hebrew of Hebrews. He realised his error, stopped his killing, and turned to Jesus.

 

[Studyman]

. . touching the righteousness which is in the Law, blameless.
(Philippians 3:6)
​

[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3551 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]nomō[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]νόμῳ[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][the] law,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-DMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

. . and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the Law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith . .
(Philippians 3:9)
​

[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3551 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]nomou[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]νόμου,[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"][the] law,[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-GMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

this word "nomo"
-- does it mean "the Law" or does it mean "human traditions and commandments of men" ?

Think not that I am come to destroy the Law, or the prophets:
I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(Matthew 5:17)
​

[TABLE="class: maintext, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: strongsnt"]3551 [e][/TD]
[TD="class: translit"]nomon[/TD]
[TD="class: greek2"]νόμον[/TD]
[TD="class: eng"]law[/TD]
[TD="class: pos"]N-AMS[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


shall we believe Jesus?

Yes, we should believe in the Word's of Jesus, even when they expose an error in our belief, actually, "especially" when they expose an error in our belief.

You take one sentence from Paul and use it to deny the Word's of the Christ.

Jesus and Paul and the Prophets say the Pharisees were teaching a vision of their own mind, "rudiments of the world", "teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men", establishing their own righteousness, place heavy burdens on the people, "received the Law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it", were "children of satan", "Transgress the commandments of God by their own religious traditions, didn't glorify God as God, and on and on and on.

To follow your religion I must deny these scriptures, erase them from my mind, omit them from consideration because you and the Pope say so.

I contend to men that the "Law" of the Pharisees was not the Law of God as Jesus said. I ask folks to consider what the Bible teaches about the Pharisees religion and take these Words into account.

Even if it means exposing religious beliefs as from man and not from God, actually, "especially" if they expose religious beliefs as from men and not from God.

As a Pharisees, righteousness is acquired by their version of the performance of Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins. This is another Biblical Fact. Paul learned that it was the Faith in Christ that cleansed him, or made him righteous. Not the Pharisees version of the Priesthood "Law".

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

We should listen to the Word which became Flesh. All of His Words, not just a couple of sentences.

I believe we should let the Scriptures create our doctrines, I don't believe we should pick through the scriptures to use them to promote religious traditions of men.

 

[Studyman]

Paul was a good Jew, a Hebrew of Hebrews. He realised his error, stopped his killing, and turned to Jesus.

Yes, after his conversion he became a good Jew. Before that he was an "Anti-Christ" murderer of innocent people and a liar who turned others away from God.

 

[PS]

Yes, we should believe in the Word's of Jesus, even when they expose an error in our belief, actually, "especially" when they expose an error in our belief.

You take one sentence from Paul and use it to deny the Word's of the Christ.

Jesus and Paul and the Prophets say the Pharisees were teaching a vision of their own mind, "rudiments of the world", "teaching for doctrines the Commandments of men", establishing their own righteousness, place heavy burdens on the people, "received the Law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it", were "children of satan", "Transgress the commandments of God by their own religious traditions, didn't glorify God as God, and on and on and on.

To follow your religion I must deny these scriptures, erase them from my mind, omit them from consideration because you and the Pope say so.

I contend to men that the "Law" of the Pharisees was not the Law of God as Jesus said. I ask folks to consider what the Bible teaches about the Pharisees religion and take these Words into account.

Even if it means exposing religious beliefs as from man and not from God, actually, "especially" if they expose religious beliefs as from men and not from God.

As a Pharisees, righteousness is acquired by their version of the performance of Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "works of the Law" for remission of sins. This is another Biblical Fact. Paul learned that it was the Faith in Christ that cleansed him, or made him righteous. Not the Pharisees version of the Priesthood "Law".

9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

We should listen to the Word which became Flesh. All of His Words, not just a couple of sentences.

I believe we should let the Scriptures create our doctrines, I don't believe we should pick through the scriptures to use them to promote religious traditions of men.

Jesus fulfilled the law and the prophets (the Old Testament), His law remains till the ends of the earth, never to be destroyed.

There are the laws of Mahamodies (spelling) and the law of God. God's law remains.

 

[posthuman]

I am sticking to the Word's of the Bible.

yeah, you say this, but . .

It is simply a lie to say Paul was this obedient Jew walking in all the Commandments of God Blameless

in your next breath you wholly reject Philippians 3.

this is what the Word says about Saul of Tarsus:

. . regarding the righteousness that is in the Law, blameless.​

i'm only quoting this snippet for brevity -- earlier i also gave the context, which refutes what you do with it:

why do you remove the word "Law" and take 1/2 verses out of 5 different contexts ((completely ignoring the actual context of Philippians)) to try to change it into "traditions of men" ?

you think Saul was rounding up believers to be stoned according to the commandments, because they weren't washing their hands before they ate?
if you can find that in Philippians ch. 2-3 you'll have something actually worth talking about.

 

[Studyman]

A good example of two Gods. It is worth considering who the God of the Pharisees was, for their god was the god of the people including Paul. They all followed the same Law that leads to their condemnation.

Yes, as Jesus said: They "transgressed the Commandments of God by their own traditions"

But Zechariahs and Elizabeth, Mary and a few Wise Men, believed in the God of Abraham instead of the god the Mainstream Preachers of their time promoted. They submitted to the Righteousness of God and followed His Commandments. And they knew Jesus because as He promised Jesus manifested Himself to them.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

That is my point. The Pharisees were not trying to "earn" Salvation by following God's Laws. They, like "many" who come in Christ's name today, taught a vision of their own mind. A false religion. They taught "commandments of men" not God.

Zechariahs didn't do this.

 

[PS]

Yes, after his conversion he became a good Jew. Before that he was an "Anti-Christ" murderer of innocent people and a liar who turned others away from God.

Negative, you are sitting on the fence and cannot reconcile the two. Saul was a good Jew only in the eyes of other Jews. After he repented and followed Christ he became a good Christian.

The change was remarkable. Why? Because originally he was following the deceiver.

We can see the two G/gods at work in the life of Saul/Paul.

 

[Dan_473]

Then there is Jesus saying the law is in place until heaven and earth disappear. When we sin we break the law of God. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus. Those who reject Jesus will be judged with the law at judgement.

I believe what Jesus said was
the law is in place until heaven and earth disappear

until all is fulfilled

 

[posthuman]

I see, so why did he consent to the murder of Stephen, did Stephen also blaspheme God's holy law?

see post #9942

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/159613-gods-sabbath-real-truth-col-2-14-17-who-do-we-believe-god-man-475.html#post3583460

because they did not believe Jesus is I AM ((John 8:24)) they believed that He and all His followers were guilty of blaspheming the name of God, in violation of Leviticus 16.

they didn't kill Stephen for failing to wash his hands before he ate. they killed him for what they thought was blasphemy.

 

[Wall]

the questions you are asking are not relevant to Christians. there are plenty of N.T. instructions as to how a believer is to behave. all of the 10 except Sabbath are clearly commanded.

Thats not so.

HEBREWS 4 [9] THERE REMAINETH THEREFORE A REST to the people of God.[10] For HE THAT IS ENTERED INTO HIS REST, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS. [11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Well...Ya see what it says. Now lets see how God rested from His work

HEBREWS 4 [4] For he spake in a certain place of THE SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY from all his works

Yup. God rested the 7th day. The sabbath. Pretty simple

 

[Dan_473]

Negative. The true God would never condone the taking of life.

If you remember Father and Son are one. What the Father does the Son does and vice-a-versa. You will also remember Jesus rescued the woman caught in adultery from the clutches of those about to stone her to death, so plainly it was not of Jesus or the Father. The 'god' who commanded stoning is the god who tempted Jesus, saying he would give Jesus everything he could see. Jesus (the Word made flesh) was the original creator. The universe is his already.

is this the same God in these two passages?

Genesis 2: 7. Yhwh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Leviticus 20: 1. Yhwh spoke to Moses, saying, 2. "Moreover, you shall tell the children of Israel, 'Anyone of the children of Israel, or of the strangers who live as foreigners in Israel, who gives any of his seed to Molech; he shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones.

 

[posthuman]

Thats not so.

HEBREWS 4 [9] THERE REMAINETH THEREFORE A REST to the people of God.[10] For HE THAT IS ENTERED INTO HIS REST, he also hath ceased from his own works, AS GOD DID FROM HIS. [11] Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Well...Ya see what it says. Now lets see how God rested from His work

HEBREWS 4 [4] For he spake in a certain place of THE SEVENTH DAY on this wise, And GOD DID REST THE SEVENTH DAY from all his works

Yup. God rested the 7th day. The sabbath. Pretty simple

So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jewish leaders began to persecute Him. In His defense Jesus said to them,
​

“My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I too am working.”
​

For this reason they tried all the more to kill Him; not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
(John 5:16-18)​

IMO any time i think the Bible is simple, i'm missing out on an unfathomable depth of meaning.

 

[Endoscopy]

So then you agree, there was no Law of God that condemned Jesus. So when the Pharisees said "We have a Law" they weren't talking about God's Laws, because God's Laws didn't condemn Jesus. So then Jesus was right when he said the following.

Matt. 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

There is no Law of God that teaches we should execute folks for speaking the truth. But the Pharisees had a long standing religious "LAW" of killing folks for telling the truth. their Law called for the murder of the Prophets, Jesus, Stephen and many others.

This is my whole point. The "many" who come in His Name, who preach that the Pharisees were trying to "earn" Salvation by following the "letter of God's Laws" are preaching a false doctrine whether they know it or not. Given that I see this truth, shall I not share it with others? Even if I know they also, will resent me for telling them this truth?

You are acting like an ignorant fool. They were using the blasphemy law for killing them. Remember that Paul had a letter allowing him to go forth and kill these "blasphemers". They were doing this with the mistaken belief that Jesus was only a man. Paul was converted with a confrontation with Jesus!! He was unique in that regard. He immediately went from being a murderer of Christians to being one!!

 

[Studyman]

yeah, you say this, but . .



in your next breath you wholly reject Philippians 3.

this is what the Word says about Saul of Tarsus:

. . regarding the righteousness that is in the Law, blameless.​

why do you remove the word "Law" and take 1/2 verses out of 5 different contexts ((completely ignoring the actual context of Philippians)) to try to change it into "traditions of men" ?

you think Saul was rounding up believers to be stoned according to the commandments, because they weren't washing their hands before they ate?
if you can find that in Philippians ch. 2-3 and you'll have something actually worth talking about.

You do to me as you do to the Christ. you only post parts of my post as use it to promote your religion.

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

If this was my whole Bible, and Jesus and Paul and the Prophets of old hadn't already told me what the Pharisees were, what their religion was, you might have a leg to stand on.

But they did tell us all what the religion of the Pharisees was. And Paul is telling us "As touching the Law" he was a Pharisee.

I am not rejecting anything. I am simply believing what Jesus and Paul and the Prophets say about the "Jews religion", the Pharisees. Since I strive to follow the Word's of God, I have no religious agenda to promote. I don't need to reject, discard, omit, ignore, erase all the Word's which God gave me to describe the Pharisees.

So when Paul declares himself a Pharisee, I already know what him and Jesus and others have said about them.

To me it's a no-brainer. I know the Pharisees created their own "law" because Jesus and Paul said so. He said I need to "Believe in Him" for salvation. If I follow your religion in this matter, I would have to deny the Christ.

Why would I do that?

 

[Studyman]

You are acting like an ignorant fool. They were using the blasphemy law for killing them. Remember that Paul had a letter allowing him to go forth and kill these "blasphemers". They were doing this with the mistaken belief that Jesus was only a man. Paul was converted with a confrontation with Jesus!! He was unique in that regard. He immediately went from being a murderer of Christians to being one!!

Thank you for another spirit filled reply.

 

[posthuman]

Then as a Christian Brother, please show me the massive chunks of Scriptures which I have thrown out or re-defined. I implore you to show me.

thanks; that's exactly what a number of us have been trying to do for practically your entire tenure here.

the entire book of Galatians, Colossians 1-3, Philippians 3:1-11, 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, Romans 6-8 . . . for a start.

i don't follow much of the eschatological threads, but Endoscopy appears to have another group of scriptures to start listing for you too.

 

[Wall]

I am not against any law. the Law is good. but, the Law was given to Israel only at Sinai.

Thats correct. Out of the writings of Paul.

EPHES. 2 [11] Wherefore remember, that ye being IN TIME PAST GENTILES in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; [12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANTS OF PROMISE, having no hope, and without God in the world: [13] BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. [14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

We {gentiles}were once STRANGERS from Gods covenants of promise, having no hope. BUT NOW in Christ, should we take hold of those covenants, we have hope

ISAIAH 56 [6] Also the sons of THE STRANGER, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one THAT KEEPETH THE SABBATH from polluting it, and TAKETH HOLD OF MY COVENANT; [7] EVEN THEM WILL I BRING TO MY HOLY MOUNTAIN, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for ALL PEOPLE.

Even them (us gentile STRANGERS mentioned in Ephes.2) will He bring to His holy mountain, if we should take hold of His sabbath covenant. Jesus will bring us to the 1000yr period of rest

EXODUS 31 [16] Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the SABBATH, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a PERPETUAL COVENANT.

The above scripture points to one of those covenants spoken of in Ephes.2

ROMANS 1 [30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, [31] without understanding, COVENANTBREAKERS, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: [32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

And you can see who Paul lumps in with the covenantbreakers. Not good company

 

[posthuman]

Yes, after his conversion he became a good Jew. Before that he was an "Anti-Christ" murderer of innocent people and a liar who turned others away from God.

after he met Christ, he became a Christian, and said there was no more Gentile / Jew.
and he contended for most the rest of his life on earth against those who were teaching that believers in Christ must become physically Jews.