Bill Johnson's Presuppositional Based Hermeneutic Is A Psychosis

[DevotiontoBible]

In his book "Dreaming with God" Bill Johnson instructs that for 2,000 years Christianity has had it all wrong. Hermeneutical rules have stopped the church from a dominionist agenda that it should have. We need to not have these rules and instead approach the Bible as he does: "whatever my heart is set upon when I come to the Bible, will determine much of what I see in the Bible" p153. Bill Johnson doesn't come to the Bible to see what God has to show him but to see what he wants to see. He repeatedly says throughout the book "it is not Father, Son, Holy Bible but Holy Spirit". He claims the Holy Spirit gives him these desires which he then uses as his authority to begin his approach to the Bible. As an example, he tells the story of a roadrunner that got into his church and died. The roadrunner is kin to the eagle. The eagle represents the prophetic in the Bible. Therefore, God is speaking that the prophetic movement will die if it doesn't move out of Bill Johnson's church. Isn't that a psychosis to not see reality but see what you want to see?

 

[NotmebutHim]

I don't agree with Bill Johnson either.

People such as John MacArthur, Justin Peters, Phil Johnson and Mike Winger have said a lot about his teaching as well.

I think Todd Friel, also.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

I forgot to mention that he wants to see a prophetic message from God in all of life's circumstances, like the roadrunner incident.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Isn't that a psychosis to not see reality but see what you want to see?

Well let's just hope that Bill Johnson is ignored by the majority of Christians and his book goes nowhere. If a roadrunner got into his church, it means that Johnson is the coyote.

 

[maxwel]

In his book "Dreaming with God" Bill Johnson instructs that for 2,000 years Christianity has had it all wrong. Hermeneutical rules have stopped the church from a dominionist agenda that it should have. We need to not have these rules and instead approach the Bible as he does: "whatever my heart is set upon when I come to the Bible, will determine much of what I see in the Bible" p153. Bill Johnson doesn't come to the Bible to see what God has to show him but to see what he wants to see. He repeatedly says throughout the book "it is not Father, Son, Holy Bible but Holy Spirit". He claims the Holy Spirit gives him these desires which he then uses as his authority to begin his approach to the Bible. As an example, he tells the story of a roadrunner that got into his church and died. The roadrunner is kin to the eagle. The eagle represents the prophetic in the Bible. Therefore, God is speaking that the prophetic movement will die if it doesn't move out of Bill Johnson's church. Isn't that a psychosis to not see reality but see what you want to see?

Logic?

You can't argue with logic like that!

I mean you LITERALLY cannot argue with logic like that (because there isn't any)... all you can do is walk away.

In analytical terms, he is essentially just "deconstructing" the text, and using the Holy Spirit as an excuse.


Debate?
This stuff is so insane, that the only practical way to debate this with one of his adherents would be to identify his most foundational presuppositions, and just camp out there. There are so many layers of nonsense built upon the basic presuppositions that any attempt at debate "up in the layers" would just end up in endless circles of madness.

Therefore, that is where they would want the debate to occur.
They would want the debate to occur someplace above the most foundational presuppositions.
If you dig down to the very most foundational issues, then you can deal with it.
The root is going to be something epistemic.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Logic?

You can't argue with logic like that!

I mean you LITERALLY cannot argue with logic like that (because there isn't any)... all you can do is walk away.

In analytical terms, he is essentially just "deconstructing" the text, and using the Holy Spirit as an excuse.


Debate?
This stuff is so insane, that the only practical way to debate this with one of his adherents would be to identify his most foundational presuppositions, and just camp out there. There are so many layers of nonsense built upon the basic presuppositions that any attempt at debate "up in the layers" would just end up in endless circles of madness.

Therefore, that is where they would want the debate to occur.
They would want the debate to occur someplace above the most foundational presuppositions.
If you dig down to the very most foundational issues, then you can deal with it.
The root is going to be something epistemic.

I'm hoping to figure out a way to argue because my daughter and son-in-law are heavily mixed up in this. They won't speak to me and their mother or let us have contact with our grandchild because we aren't "spiritual".

 

[maxwel]

I'm hoping to figure out a way to argue because my daughter and son-in-law are heavily mixed up in this. They won't speak to me and their mother or let us have contact with our grandchild because we aren't "spiritual".

Here are a quick few ideas:


1. Presuppositions:
A. Study a bit to find his foundational presuppositions.
B. Decide which ones are the easiest to explain and refute.
C. Use the simplest and clearest arguments... or nobody will be able to follow you.
D. Sprinkle an analogy or two into this discussion, so they can VISUALIZE what you're saying.

2. Ridiculous Assertions:
A. Look for a few assertions that are so insane that nobody could possibly believe them.
B. Point these out, and explain how crazy they are.
C. These are only "supporting arguments" for point #1 ... only use them as support

3. Authority
A. Find some authoritative experts that your opponents respect, and show how they disagree.
B. This does NOT constitute a logical proof... but it can be used as persuasive "support".

4. Vids
A. When all else fails, look for some youtube videos debunking this gentleman.
B. Actually, this may be the simplest place to start: if the videos are any good, they'll do all the hard work for you.
C. When you find debunking videos, assess them by watching to see if they cover the points I've mentioned above



If anyone has any experience with Bill Johnson materials, please post your experience and info for everyone.

 

[maxwel]

Couple More Quick Thoughts:

1. When you're looking for Johnson's foundational presuppositions, he will probably INTENTIONALLY MISIDENTIFY some of them.

A. He will probably say, "X is my foundational belief, how can anyone argue with x?
B. And "x" here may be something that sounds really good.
C. But if we look closer, there will be something more foundational, and more bizarre than x... there will be some crazy presuppositions which are implied, but not stated.


2. You could easily create some "arguments from absurdity" with his propositions, and be very persuasive.

- Extrapolate his premises out to their logical conclusions, and show they don't work, and the results are crazy.

 

[DJ2]

This is nothing more then Pentecostalism taken to its natural conclusion, nothing more. Reason be damned.

 

[Zmouth]

We need to not have these rules and instead approach the Bible as he does: "whatever my heart is set upon when I come to the Bible, will determine much of what I see in the Bible" p153.

If one is not being taught by the ___________ but their own understanding then what else do you believe a person is going to see in the Bible but the reflection of their own opinion.

(I left your teacher blank since you know who is teaching you then you don't need me to tell you, right?)

Bill Johnson doesn't come to the Bible to see what God has to show him but to see what he wants to see.

O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? Matt 12:34

So you mean it isn't the Holy Spirit speaking in him?

If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? Luke 11:13

So who is the father of those who are evil?

He repeatedly says throughout the book "it is not Father, Son, Holy Bible but Holy Spirit". He claims the Holy Spirit gives him these desires which he then uses as his authority to begin his approach to the Bible.

Desires or lust? (See John 8:44)

 

[graceNpeace]

This is nothing more then Pentecostalism taken to its natural conclusion, nothing more. Reason be damned.

Complete nonsense!
Flakes are everywhere...and your stance on water baptism places you right in that league...

You need to stop painting with such a broad brush!

 

[lightbearer]

In his book "Dreaming with God" Bill Johnson instructs that for 2,000 years Christianity has had it all wrong. Hermeneutical rules have stopped the church from a dominionist agenda that it should have.

The Holy Spirit; GOD's agenda is to establish HIS Kingdom in Christ through the Holy Spirit. It is HIS' people in Christ.. Though it is very physical we will not be a gathered people nationally until He comes with voice of the Arch Angel and the Trump of GOD putting an end of this era.

We need to not have these rules and instead approach the Bible as he does: "whatever my heart is set upon when I come to the Bible, will determine much of what I see in the Bible" p153. Bill Johnson doesn't come to the Bible to see what God has to show him but to see what he wants to see.

I could be wrong, I am Not familiar with Bill's teachings but it sounds as if you are taking him out of context. If he or we's desires are lead by the Holy Spirit we are lead by GOD.

He repeatedly says throughout the book "it is not Father, Son, Holy Bible but Holy Spirit".

And that is wrong?

He claims the Holy Spirit gives him these desires which he then uses as his authority to begin his approach to the Bible.

So let me get this straight. Your issue is that Bill Johnson teaches that we should be lead by the Holy Spirit. And it is the Holy Spirit that is what dictates his desires and ours? And it is these desires that should dictate his and our's approach to the Bible and what we see?

As an example, he tells the story of a roadrunner that got into his church and died. The roadrunner is kin to the eagle. The eagle represents the prophetic in the Bible. Therefore, God is speaking that the prophetic movement will die if it doesn't move out of Bill Johnson's church. Isn't that a psychosis to not see reality but see what you want to see?

Is that your interpretation or his?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I am Not familiar with Bill's teachings but it sounds as if you are taking him out of context. If he or we's desires are lead by the Holy Spirit we are lead by GOD. And that is wrong?So let me get this straight. Your issue is that Bill Johnson teaches that we should be lead by the Holy Spirit. And it is the Holy Spirit that is what dictates his desires and ours? And it is these desires that should dictate his and our's approach to the Bible and what we see?

Johnson is part of the emergent church movement that seeks to deconstruct biblical Christianity and remake it in its own ecumenical image. Doctrine is discarded and spiritual experience is paramount. By discarding doctrine there are no restraints as to what spirit they follow, so most (all?) of what they do is carnal, soulish.

 

[lightbearer]

Johnson is part of the emergent church movement that seeks to deconstruct biblical Christianity and remake it in its own ecumenical image. Doctrine is discarded and spiritual experience is paramount. By discarding doctrine there are no restraints as to what spirit they follow, so most (all?) of what they do is carnal, soulish.

Thanks for taking the time to respond. As I said I am not familiar with this guy. But from what I see in the OP I can not see that he promotes carnality.

Since I got your ear what do you mean by soulish? Was that a typo? Do you mean soulless? As in deprived of any humanity; compassion?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. As I said I am not familiar with this guy. But from what I see in the OP I can not see that he promotes carnality.

Since I got your ear what do you mean by soulish? Was that a typo? Do you mean soulless? As in deprived of any humanity; compassion?

By soulish I mean carnal, fleshly, worldly, the things that appeal to man, but not GOD. There are ways that seem right to man, but the ways thereof are death.

For the word of God [is] living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, both joints and marrow, and able to judge the reflections and thoughts of the heart. Hebrews 4:12​

 

[lightbearer]

By soulish I mean carnal, fleshly, worldly, the things that appeal to man, but not GOD.

Why you say that he promotes that. As I said according to the OP He claims to be led by the Spirit and by the Spirit he interrupts the Bible and by the Spirit he is led to it.

That is what I get from it anyway.

There are ways that seem right to man, but the ways thereof are death.

Amen!

For the word of God [is] living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, both joints and marrow, and able to judge the reflections and thoughts of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

Amen!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Why you say that he promotes that. As I said according to the OP He claims to be led by the Spirit and by the Spirit he interrupts the Bible and by the Spirit he is led to it.

That is what I get from it anyway.

1) Because he rejects sound doctrine
2) I've seen videos of his carnal church

All false teachers claim to be led by the spirit. If they reject sound doctrine they are being led by a spirit, but it's not the holy spirit.

 

[plainguy]

The Holy Spirit; GOD's agenda is to establish HIS Kingdom in Christ through the Holy Spirit. It is HIS' people in Christ.. Though it is very physical we will not be a gathered people nationally until He comes with voice of the Arch Angel and the Trump of GOD putting an end of this era. I could be wrong ..........

Who said ... "My Kingdom is not of this world" ? And God has established Christ's Kingdom ... in heaven. Bill Johnson, regardless of what he "claims" is very much in sync with the Toronto Blessing, NAR >> the Peter Wagner crowd with all it's self-appointed modern day "apostles" (Todd Bentley kinda blew up in their face) etc. etc. All the like-minded miraculous signs and wonders folks c/w gold dust falling from the ceilings at some of their meetings. You name it, they've likely had it occur before their very eyes. Barking like dogs "in the sprit" ... tongues in abundance ... prophetic messages by the dozens ... miracles and more miracles ... the list is endless. And all by the "spirits leading", of course. Complete and utter nonsense having nothing to do with the gospel of Christ nor God's Word. Do some research. It's as plain as the nose on your face.

 

[NayborBear]

I always apply: "Gibbs:" Rule #5- There's no such thing, as a coincidence.
Rule #8- Never trust anyone, who has just "gut-punched" you.

Have "fun" y'all.

 

[DJ2]

Complete nonsense!
Flakes are everywhere...and your stance on water baptism places you right in that league...

You need to stop painting with such a broad brush!

Bill Johnson and his ilk are by no means suffering from psychosis nor are they flakes. They are simply applying the Pentecostal mindset to it logical end. When tongues, prophetic messages and personal claims of being "lead by the spirit" are never challenged, chaos rules. When people are allowed to take titles such as Apostle or Prophet, pandemonium reigns.

My stance on water baptism is based upon sola scriptura. I do not use claims of esoteric knowledge in any form. You may disagree with my view on water baptism but it is a stance based on reason and not personal intuition.

I do not believe it is the brush that I am using that is concerning you but the realization that you are of the same hue.