"OSAS Proven"

[TheGospelSaves]

Alright I understand I came off wrong forgive me, let me show you scripture and then you could show me Scripture. I read your reasoning on the Scripture you did provide however I believe those are explainable if you want me to explain biblical I can. Just give me the verse and I will. Here are my "OSAS" Scriptures I think the bibles clear Salvation isnt something you can earn so its not something you can walk away from.

(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

(Jude 1:1) JUDE, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

(John 10:27-28) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

(1 Corinthians 3:13-15) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This above Verse is clear that remaining Faithful is about recieving a Reward thats finishing the race nothing to do with loosing your Salvation at all. It's clear that if any mans works be burned he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be SAVED. Thats clear as Crystal.

(John 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Tell me is this just one Verse like you said? Am I pulling this out of Context does this not match up with John 3:16? I think so. This says who ever believes "HAS" Everlasting life not MAY HAVE.

(1 Corinthians 1:8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Romans 8:38-39) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Ephesians 4:30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

(Jude 1:24) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

(James 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

How could you say Salvation isnt based on what Jesus did for you saving you by grace but instead say that Salvation is based on you keeping it? Rather then it being a Gift its in your hands to wether or not you keep it? Your making Salvation seem like its something you did when you didnt! Thats Blasphemy in its self!

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Alright I understand I came off wrong forgive me, let me show you scripture and then you could show me Scripture. I read your reasoning on the Scripture you did provide however I believe those are explainable if you want me to explain biblical I can. Just give me the verse and I will. Here are my "OSAS" Scriptures I think the bibles clear Salvation isnt something you can earn so its not something you can walk away from.

(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

(Jude 1:1) JUDE, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

(John 10:27-28) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

(1 Corinthians 3:13-15) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This above Verse is clear that remaining Faithful is about recieving a Reward thats finishing the race nothing to do with loosing your Salvation at all. It's clear that if any mans works be burned he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be SAVED. Thats clear as Crystal.

(John 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Tell me is this just one Verse like you said? Am I pulling this out of Context does this not match up with John 3:16? I think so. This says who ever believes "HAS" Everlasting life not MAY HAVE.

(1 Corinthians 1:8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Romans 8:38-39) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Ephesians 4:30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

(Jude 1:24) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

(James 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

How could you say Salvation isnt based on what Jesus did for you saving you by grace but instead say that Salvation is based on you keeping it? Rather then it being a Gift its in your hands to wether or not you keep it? Your making Salvation seem like its something you did when you didnt! Thats Blasphemy in its self!

"By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourself. It is the gift of God, not of works that no man should boast." I am not saying that salvation is not based upon what Jesus did. All I am saying is that there are scriptures which speak of falling away. One cannot fall away from what one did not have. I don't think it is easy and I don't think it is accidental. But I cannot in good conscience deny that there are scriptures that indicate it's possibility, and in sufficient numbers to support that assertion.

 

[Mulehide]

"By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourself. It is the gift of God, not of works that no man should boast." I am not saying that salvation is not based upon what Jesus did. All I am saying is that there are scriptures which speak of falling away. One cannot fall away from what one did not have. I don't think it is easy and I don't think it is accidental. But I cannot in good conscience deny that there are scriptures that indicate it's possibility, and in sufficient numbers to support that assertion.

Some of those same Scriptures also speak of not being able to return once one as fallen away. Is there truly a point of no return? I have heard of a story where a man rejected God and rejected God and rejected God quite vehemently. He then much later wanted to turn to God and was not able. There's an old time preacher (I forgot who) that spoke on "God's Three Deadlines". Is there such a thing?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Some of those same Scriptures also speak of not being able to return once one as fallen away. Is there truly a point of no return? I have heard of a story where a man rejected God and rejected God and rejected God quite vehemently. He then much later wanted to turn to God and was not able. There's an old time preacher (I forgot who) that spoke on "God's Three Deadlines". Is there such a thing?

In my opinion, the scriptures you refer to (Hebrews) are not about God's unwillingness to forgive as much as a hardness of heart which makes in impossible for you to trust God's grace.

 

[Crypto]

Alright I understand I came off wrong forgive me, let me show you scripture and then you could show me Scripture. I read your reasoning on the Scripture you did provide however I believe those are explainable if you want me to explain biblical I can. Just give me the verse and I will. Here are my "OSAS" Scriptures I think the bibles clear Salvation isnt something you can earn so its not something you can walk away from.

(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

(Jude 1:1) JUDE, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

(John 10:27-28) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

(1 Corinthians 3:13-15) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This above Verse is clear that remaining Faithful is about recieving a Reward thats finishing the race nothing to do with loosing your Salvation at all. It's clear that if any mans works be burned he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be SAVED. Thats clear as Crystal.

(John 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Tell me is this just one Verse like you said? Am I pulling this out of Context does this not match up with John 3:16? I think so. This says who ever believes "HAS" Everlasting life not MAY HAVE.

(1 Corinthians 1:8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Romans 8:38-39) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Ephesians 4:30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

(Jude 1:24) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

(James 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

How could you say Salvation isnt based on what Jesus did for you saving you by grace but instead say that Salvation is based on you keeping it? Rather then it being a Gift its in your hands to wether or not you keep it? Your making Salvation seem like its something you did when you didnt! Thats Blasphemy in its self!

Amen! We're the body of Christ, I hardly think God will amputate part of His body.

 

[Ricke]

TheGospelsaves
Let me answer every verse you posted in support of OSAS.

I Corinthians 3 v 13-15 speaking about God giving us Fiery trials to test our Faith and resolve.._I Peter 4 v 12; "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to TRY you, as though some strange thing happened unto you."
Summation; has nothing to do with OSAS.

John 6 v 47 " He that beleiveth on me, hath everlasting life"

John 7 v 38 "He that beleiveth on me, AS THE SCRIPTURE HATH SAID, out of his belly shall ow rivers of living water".

Salvation is conditional that you have obeyed the simple things Jesus commanded, and accept what His Apostles taught (I Timothy 4 v 16). Other wise you won't qualify.

I Corinthians 1 v 8 ; in verse 2 Paul is speaking to The established Church in Corinth. These folks had already been Biblically converted.

Romans 8 v 38-39; Paul is speaking to The already established Christian, Apostolic Church at Rome, telling them By loving The Lord, that noone ( other then themselves) could separate themselves from The Love of Jesus.

Ephesians 4 v 30; " And grieve not THE HOLY SPIRIT of God whereby you are Sealed unto the day of redemption."


Translation; When someone is filled with The Spirit of God they Are sealed, but if they grow complacent, lukewarm, God will spew them out ( Revelation 3 v 15-16).

Jude 1 v 24; "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you FAULTLESS before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy".

Translation; again we see CONDITIONAL. Depends on you being faultless which you have to learn through reading the scriptures.


James 2 v 10; "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all'

Translation: CONDITIONAL once again, how does this verse supposedly support OSAS???

THE SATANIC LIE OF OSAS.

Apostle Paul said; I Corinthians 9 v 27; "But I keep under my body, and bring it unto subjection; lest that by ANY MEANS, when I preached to others, I Myself SHOULD BE A CASTAWAY.

Question; if Salvation wasen't Conditional, then why would Paul concern himself with being a Castaway....????

Revelation chapters two and three, Jesus addressing the Seven Churches warns 6 of these Churches unless they became OVERCOMERS........... again CONDITIONAL.

OSAS is another false teaching, just accept Jesus, no fuss or muss, set yourself on CRUISE CONTROL, and your saved.

We are saved by Grace and his Mercy, but there are conditions that must be met by OBEDIENCE to what saith The Word of God.

 

[phil36]

Personally, I believe once saved always saved or OSAS.


I think you may go into the wilderness for a time, yet God will bring you back.. how long is that wilderness, it can be any amount of time..of course this only applies if you are truly saved and believe in the one triune God.

Most of the verses used to prove OSAS are exhortations and warnings, some are to those who have heard the light yet are still in darkness.

Where is your assurance? you have no assurance of eternity if you can loose your assurance the perfect work of Christ on the Cross, the God-man..

Anyhow I have no major gripe against those who believe different, I think they are wrong, but, no major gripe, unlike some. I find it very amusing that the same people who deny doctrine and dogmas are the very first people to apply their own doctrine and dogmas.. and I am talking about you Ricke.

Blessings

Phil

 

[resurrection33]

We need to always be in service to the Lord. If we stop serving him, life will become very bleak, I think you will find.

 

[phil36]

We need to always be in service to the Lord. If we stop serving him, life will become very bleak, I think you will find.

That is our life, we walk the walk, and finnish the race. OSAS does not take away from that, mind you some may think so. And you are perfectly correct Ress, if we stop serving life will become very bleak.

Blessings

Phil

 

[forerunner]

Alright I understand I came off wrong forgive me, let me show you scripture and then you could show me Scripture. I read your reasoning on the Scripture you did provide however I believe those are explainable if you want me to explain biblical I can. Just give me the verse and I will. Here are my "OSAS" Scriptures I think the bibles clear Salvation isnt something you can earn so its not something you can walk away from.

(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

(Jude 1:1) JUDE, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

(John 10:27-28) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

(1 Corinthians 3:13-15) Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

This above Verse is clear that remaining Faithful is about recieving a Reward thats finishing the race nothing to do with loosing your Salvation at all. It's clear that if any mans works be burned he shall suffer loss but he himself shall be SAVED. Thats clear as Crystal.

(John 6:47) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. Tell me is this just one Verse like you said? Am I pulling this out of Context does this not match up with John 3:16? I think so. This says who ever believes "HAS" Everlasting life not MAY HAVE.

(1 Corinthians 1:8) Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Romans 8:38-39) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

(Ephesians 4:30) And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

(Jude 1:24) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

(James 2:10) For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

How could you say Salvation isnt based on what Jesus did for you saving you by grace but instead say that Salvation is based on you keeping it? Rather then it being a Gift its in your hands to wether or not you keep it? Your making Salvation seem like its something you did when you didnt! Thats Blasphemy in its self!

You miss the whole point. OSAS claims that once a person gets saved they cannot leave even if they wanted to. I cannot find that in scripture. Matter of fact Paul constantly warns us against leaving the faith. He would not have done that if it were impossible as OSAS proponents claim.

 

[Red33]

You miss the whole point. OSAS claims that once a person gets saved they cannot leave even if they wanted to. I cannot find that in scripture. Matter of fact Paul constantly warns us against leaving the faith. He would not have done that if it were impossible as OSAS proponents claim.

What part of the following passage do you not understand or have trouble with?

1Cor 6:14-20
14And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Are you going to tell the believers at Corinth, who Paul has been teaching, that they are in danger of leaving the faith? If that were true then why tell them that they are not their own, for they have been bought with a price? They don't even belong to themselves anymore because that were purchased by the blood of Christ.

 

[forerunner]

What part of the following passage do you not understand or have trouble with?

1Cor 6:14-20
14And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Are you going to tell the believers at Corinth, who Paul has been teaching, that they are in danger of leaving the faith? If that were true then why tell them that they are not their own, for they have been bought with a price? They don't even belong to themselves anymore because that were purchased by the blood of Christ.

Umm, I told you what the problem with the false doctrine of OSAS. But just so you get it more clearly.

The good Olive Tree. (Romans 11:22)
Romans 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
There is no question here that those that were once ''grafted in (saved) can afterwards be cut off (backslide). In context Paul is writing to believing Gentiles about unbelieving Jews.
Romans 11:16-24
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree:
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, the branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.
20 Well: because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standeth by faith. Be not high minded but fear.
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest He also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
23 And they also if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree that is wild by nature, and were grafted in contrary to nature into the good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branched be grated into their own olive tree?
Here we see the unbelieving Jews were cut out and the believing Gentiles were grafted into the good olive tree. There is no guarantee of Eternal Security, as a matter of fact it's just the opposite. If we do not continue in God's goodness we will be cut off.
Verse 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou shall also be cut off.
The Jews were cut off because of unbelief but the scripture says that we as Gentiles will be cut off because we do not continue in God's goodness. If we are cut off it is because of sin not unbelief; the unbelieving Gentile would have never been grafted in in the first place.



''IF'' we continue in the faith. Colossians 1:21-23
Colossians 1:21-23
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now have been reconciled.
22 In the body of His flesh through His death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in His sight.
23 IF you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which you have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am a minister;
Like in Romans 11:22 we see the big IF, If we continue in the faith, being grounded and settled, not being moved away from the hope of the gospel. We will be presented holy, unblameable, unreproveable before God. If we are moved away not continuing in the faith then we will not be presented holy before God.
This clearly shows we can be moved away from God after we have been reconciled. Verse 21 said we were enemies of God by wicked works and if we continue to engage in wicked works after we have been ''saved'' we will continue to be enemies of God.



Hebrews 6:4-6
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible for those that were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost.
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come.
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance seeing they crucify themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
This passage of scripture is scary but it does need to be addressed. It is obvious that the people referred to in these verses were at one time saved and that they were able to fall away. It also says that there are places you can go in God that after you been to these heights if you were to fall away you cannot return. How far or deep you need to be in God to reach this point, I do not know. However what is clear is that the OSAS doctrine does not mesh with this passage of scripture.
A better question for those of you that adhere to the OSAS doctrine, rather than what is the point of no return, is can you turn from God after salvation? Better yet, are you now living in a backslidden condition without even realizing it? Do you care more about you own life, cares, wants, lusts than about serving God? Have you placed yourself above God? If so you have fallen away and are in desperate need of repentance.

Returning to your own vomit 2nd Peter 2:20-22
2nd Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.


Let's look at these verses one at a time.
Verse 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of this world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
These people were definitely saved, because they did not just know about Jesus, but they had escaped the pollutions of the world through their knowledge of Christ. The scripture says that after they were saved if they return to their sin they are worse off than from the beginning. Under the false teaching of Eternal Security this is impossible. They could not be worse off than before they were saved because they would still be saved and on their way to Heaven. Yet scripture says they are worse off than before they were saved. So who is right? God or the promoters of eternal Security?
Verse 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
Once again you cannot be better off never being saved than backslidden if Eternal Security was true. Before they were saved they were on their way to hell, and you can not be better off going to Hell than Heaven. Scripture says people that turn from their faith are worse off than those that have never been saved at all. People that turn from God after salvation will not only go to hell but they will receive even worse punishment than those that never accept Jesus at all.
I will touch more on this in a future chapter about Christians that return to or continue in sin when I get to Hebrews 10:26-31 but right now let's look at what Jesus said in Luke 12:47-48
Luke 12:47-48
47 And the servant, which knew his lord's will and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did thing worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Those that have been saved and truly know God's will, if they fall away they will suffer worse than those that never knew God or His will at all.
Verse 22 But it has happen to them according to the true proverb, the dog has turn to his own vomit and the sow that was washed to wallowing in the mire.
When we as Christians turn back to sin it is like a dog returning to his own vomit. Also those of us that have had our sins washed away by the blood of Christ. If we turn from Him and back to the world, then it is like a pig that had been washed returning to the mud pit.


There is no question that all of these passages individually and definitely in combination prove that the Eternal Security/OSAS doctrine is unbiblical at best and a lie of Satan at worst.
These next groups of scripture will show us what Jesus Himself had to say to the church in Asia. You will see clearly that he tells many to repent. People in these churches were all at one time saved, yet Jesus tells them to repent or else as you will see.


Finally to answer your question I understand 1st Corinthians 6:14-20 perfectly, but if you think it teaches OSAS then you must not.

 

[Ricke]

Phil 36

So; you beleive in OSAS, you don't beleive in Oneness.
How about The tooth Fairy, and The Easter Bunny? Santa? Chicken Little?

 

[phil36]

Phil 36

So; you beleive in OSAS, you don't beleive in Oneness.
How about The tooth Fairy, and The Easter Bunny? Santa? Chicken Little?

Yes I believe once you are saved, you are always saved, but I cannot see how that equates to the heresy you believe.

Wot there is no tooth fairy, nor eater bunny ahh and no santa?? (havent a clue whop chicken little is, must be as fictitious as your oneness belief!)

Have a read here, and you will see that oneness pentecostals are just following the heresy of the ages: http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/14285-trinity-vs-oneness-15.html#post358409

Blessings

Phil

 

[forerunner]

Phil 36

So; you beleive in OSAS, you don't beleive in Oneness.
How about The tooth Fairy, and The Easter Bunny? Santa? Chicken Little?

No one who believe in a pretrib rapture has much room to talk

 

[Saint]

Some of these will have been repeated from other threads.



Isaiah 59:2 says this: But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear



Now, I can here everyone screaming and shouting about how this is old testimate and doesn't apply, but remember: God does not change, and therefore, if iniquity separates you from Him one year, it's going to separate you the next year. Also remember that this piece of Scripture is talking to God's chosen people.



The next verse I want to talk about is Galations 5. The first is the very first verse which says Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. So the people Paul was talking to here were made free in Christ, and then warned not to be entangled again. Therefore, it's possible to be entangled again. The next verse I want to talk about is verse 4: You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. seriously, this verse could not be any clearer, you have the ability to fall from grace and estranged from Christ. Now let me ask you, can you be estranged from something you never were close to? can you fall from something you never had? And then there are verses 19-21 which lists a whole bunch of sins, and then says that whoever commits them will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now I know that you might say that he was talking to sinners, but remember that he wrote this letter to the church, and if you go down to verse 25, he is still talking to the same person and says if we live in the Spirit... so obviously he was talking to Christians. Now, right after he says that, he says let us walk in the Spirit, now the only way to walk in the Spirit is to obey the commandments.



Now on to 2 Timothy 2:12 which says that if we deny God, He will deny us. Now, again, you might say that he was talking to non-Christians, well, if you look at who he was writing to and the context of the passage. Well, first off, earlier in the passage (verse 1) he shows who he is talking to (name of book gives it away) and then see that Timothy is a Christian, based on the fact that he is running the race, teaching the word, and Paul is not trying to convert him. And also, Paul uses the pronoun "we" which includes Paul, an apostle and saved Christian, and so if it is possible for God to deny two Christians, why not all Christians who deny Him?



Faith without works is dead, according to James 2. Now, this means that Faith, the thing that saves us, is dead, and therefore useless, if we do not have the deeds to back it up. hmm, that goes clearly against the ideology that you merely must get saved.



Now, another thing is that Jesus says that we should rebuke our brother several times and I was just wondering, why? what's the point, if they are saved, shouldn't it not matter whether or not they are sinning? as long as they are saved, of course.



Now, OK, now let's look at Luke 15:1-10. It say that if a sheep leaves the flock then the Shepard will pursue us until we are back. Well, how is that possible, for the sheep to leave that is? I mean, according to OSAS, their should be like a fence surrounding them that is really high that no one can get out of, shouldn't there be?



Now, let's go back to Isaiah, this time to chapter 7:9, which says that we should stand firm or not at all (in our faith) now, let me ask you this, dos standing firm mean that we can just do whatever, as long as we acquired that faith some time in our life?



Now, what of the unpardonable sin, that if we deny the Holy Spirit, we will not be forgiven. There is a website going around that gets Christians to deny the Holy Spirit, I'm not sure where it is, but I've seen it before, and many of the people on there were saved. By definition, to be saved you have to believe in your heart and confess with your mouth (Romans 10:9) which is what they had done in past years, but then they denied Jesus, and therefore did the unpardonable sin, and will not be forgiven.

The next thing I would like to ask is why does Satan tempt us? Shouldn't he spend his time trying to tempt people who aren't saved, considering that tempting us would be rather pointless? The worse Satan could do according to the teachings of OSAS is make sure our time of endless happiness isn't as rewarded.

Also, I would like to address this parable: 2 men (sinners) are forgiven (become Christians) by a king (God). They both leave, and then one of them sins, and is brought before the king, the king throws the guy (used to be a Christian) into a place of darkness and gnashing of teeth (Hell)

I also want to point out 1 Timothy 6:10- For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

There is also the first 3 chapters in Revelations, which has Jesus talking to the churches about how they are becoming corrupt and may be lost. Revelations is also where we find the verse where we will be spit out of the mouth of God if we become lukewarm Christians.

Now, James 3:1 tells us that teachers will be judged more harshly than anyone. Why? According to OSAS, their judgment should be not only equal, but in no way lead to Hell.

Alright, now for 2Peter 2:20-22, where we see even more clear evidence --20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

I would highlight the important parts, but all of that is important. It all clearly shows how it is possible to become a Christian and then become unsaved, and that it would be worse for the person if they did. So, right there is indisputable



If you felt that you didn't have time to read the entire post, I would say that the most convincing evidence is found the last 2 paragraphs about 2 Peter and the first really big paragraph about Galatians. I would like to thank you for being polite in your post. I hope this can become a very fruitful thread.

 

[Saint]

Phil 36

So; you beleive in OSAS, you don't beleive in Oneness.
How about The tooth Fairy, and The Easter Bunny? Santa? Chicken Little?

I'm glad we all have learned that we shouldn't be childish in our responses. Just because someone is wrong about something, doesn't give someone the right to be either childish or rude.

 

[phil36]

Some of these will have been repeated from other threads.



Isaiah 59:2 says this: But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you, So that He will not hear



Now, I can here everyone screaming and shouting about how this is old testimate and doesn't apply, but remember: God does not change, and therefore, if iniquity separates you from Him one year, it's going to separate you the next year. Also remember that this piece of Scripture is talking to God's chosen people.



The next verse I want to talk about is Galations 5. The first is the very first verse which says Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. So the people Paul was talking to here were made free in Christ, and then warned not to be entangled again. Therefore, it's possible to be entangled again. The next verse I want to talk about is verse 4: You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. seriously, this verse could not be any clearer, you have the ability to fall from grace and estranged from Christ. Now let me ask you, can you be estranged from something you never were close to? can you fall from something you never had? And then there are verses 19-21 which lists a whole bunch of sins, and then says that whoever commits them will not inherit the kingdom of God. Now I know that you might say that he was talking to sinners, but remember that he wrote this letter to the church, and if you go down to verse 25, he is still talking to the same person and says if we live in the Spirit... so obviously he was talking to Christians. Now, right after he says that, he says let us walk in the Spirit, now the only way to walk in the Spirit is to obey the commandments.



Now on to 2 Timothy 2:12 which says that if we deny God, He will deny us. Now, again, you might say that he was talking to non-Christians, well, if you look at who he was writing to and the context of the passage. Well, first off, earlier in the passage (verse 1) he shows who he is talking to (name of book gives it away) and then see that Timothy is a Christian, based on the fact that he is running the race, teaching the word, and Paul is not trying to convert him. And also, Paul uses the pronoun "we" which includes Paul, an apostle and saved Christian, and so if it is possible for God to deny two Christians, why not all Christians who deny Him?



Faith without works is dead, according to James 2. Now, this means that Faith, the thing that saves us, is dead, and therefore useless, if we do not have the deeds to back it up. hmm, that goes clearly against the ideology that you merely must get saved.



Now, another thing is that Jesus says that we should rebuke our brother several times and I was just wondering, why? what's the point, if they are saved, shouldn't it not matter whether or not they are sinning? as long as they are saved, of course.



Now, OK, now let's look at Luke 15:1-10. It say that if a sheep leaves the flock then the Shepard will pursue us until we are back. Well, how is that possible, for the sheep to leave that is? I mean, according to OSAS, their should be like a fence surrounding them that is really high that no one can get out of, shouldn't there be?



Now, let's go back to Isaiah, this time to chapter 7:9, which says that we should stand firm or not at all (in our faith) now, let me ask you this, dos standing firm mean that we can just do whatever, as long as we acquired that faith some time in our life?



Now, what of the unpardonable sin, that if we deny the Holy Spirit, we will not be forgiven. There is a website going around that gets Christians to deny the Holy Spirit, I'm not sure where it is, but I've seen it before, and many of the people on there were saved. By definition, to be saved you have to believe in your heart and confess with your mouth (Romans 10:9) which is what they had done in past years, but then they denied Jesus, and therefore did the unpardonable sin, and will not be forgiven.

The next thing I would like to ask is why does Satan tempt us? Shouldn't he spend his time trying to tempt people who aren't saved, considering that tempting us would be rather pointless? The worse Satan could do according to the teachings of OSAS is make sure our time of endless happiness isn't as rewarded.

Also, I would like to address this parable: 2 men (sinners) are forgiven (become Christians) by a king (God). They both leave, and then one of them sins, and is brought before the king, the king throws the guy (used to be a Christian) into a place of darkness and gnashing of teeth (Hell)

I also want to point out 1 Timothy 6:10- For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil, for which some have strayed from the faith in their greediness, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

There is also the first 3 chapters in Revelations, which has Jesus talking to the churches about how they are becoming corrupt and may be lost. Revelations is also where we find the verse where we will be spit out of the mouth of God if we become lukewarm Christians.

Now, James 3:1 tells us that teachers will be judged more harshly than anyone. Why? According to OSAS, their judgment should be not only equal, but in no way lead to Hell.

Alright, now for 2Peter 2:20-22, where we see even more clear evidence --20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

I would highlight the important parts, but all of that is important. It all clearly shows how it is possible to become a Christian and then become unsaved, and that it would be worse for the person if they did. So, right there is indisputable



If you felt that you didn't have time to read the entire post, I would say that the most convincing evidence is found the last 2 paragraphs about 2 Peter and the first really big paragraph about Galatians. I would like to thank you for being polite in your post. I hope this can become a very fruitful thread.

Hi Saint,

Thats was a good post and lucid, when I write it all comes out back to front.. Doesnt mean I agree with you tho

Just out of interest regarding Galatians, Paul never said they were not saved, they were being deceived and 'deserting' the Faith for as we know they where listening to the Judaizers who insisted on a works based Christianity. Anyhow, knowhere does it say they where no longer christians, yes they had been seduced by the Judaizers (this was a plague of Pauls), but Paul, warns them and exhorts them to stay on the right path, and this is a warning to us to stay on the path. If you read closely and carefully, nowhere does it say they lost their salvation??

There is a big difference, this is a great warning to us all not to listen to false teachers and exhortation to stay fighting and contending for the Faith.. Paul then call them brothers in verse 11.

We have to bare in mind that this is the fledgling gentile church, where all these things are being experienced, and we still experience them some still follow false teachers and teachings, but I would not go as far as to say they are not saved! and neither did Paul, but he did give them a heartily warning to stay in truth and not to listen to false teachers as they where being decieved.

And God will give warnings in this modern time to his children also if they start to wain or slide.

Blessings

Phil

 

[Ricke]

Saint

"We should'nt be childish in our response" why not? Seems every other person calls oneness/ Pentecostals unkind names I beleive in what goes around comes Round...

 

[phil36]

Saint

"We should'nt be childish in our response" why not? Seems every other person calls oneness/ Pentecostals unkind names I beleive in what goes around comes Round...

Hi Ricke, no one has called you a childish name, infact I thought your name calling was quite funny and it was directed at me!

Anyhow, you seem to be trying to drag pentecostals into your oneness beliefs, it is not pentecostals it is 'oneness pentecostals who follow a heresy, even pentecostals have nothing to do with your belief and doctrine.

Blessings

Phil