Not By Works
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water baptism is a work of man, youand the man baptising you are doing the work not god
god said to feed the poor, not forsake assembling together, remember the lords day, and take communion, all of these and the many other commands god gave are works,
if your going to claim one work of righteousness (water baptism) is required to be saved, you better demand they all are required.
It is the same argument used by the jews, only their baptism argument was circumcision, god required it. We know what paul said in galations and collossions, he same arguments against adding a work of the law is just as applicable as adding the work of the nt.
god said to feed the poor, not forsake assembling together, remember the lords day, and take communion, all of these and the many other commands god gave are works,
if your going to claim one work of righteousness (water baptism) is required to be saved, you better demand they all are required.
It is the same argument used by the jews, only their baptism argument was circumcision, god required it. We know what paul said in galations and collossions, he same arguments against adding a work of the law is just as applicable as adding the work of the nt.
I believe Jesus' simple words as well, along with the rest of the verse - "but he who does not believe will be condemned." It's the lack of belief that causes condemnation, not the lack of baptism. We must not build doctrine on one half of one verse or ignore the fact that Jesus left out baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
There is no proof that you are saved before you are baptized. If you were, the bible would say that. The bible actually says teach them and baptize them, implying that baptism is necessary for membership in the church and for salvation, and then Jesus, in the bible puts it in plain words, Mark 16:16 says those that believe and are baptized shall be saved.
Hard to fight the Word of God.
Hard to fight the Word of God.
Yes, James directs his words to those that say they have faith, but are hearers of the word only, and not doers of the word.
IOW hearers only are those people that claim they have faith in Jesus, but that's it, no good works accompany their faith, and therefore it is easy to say that they were never saved in the first place. James is right on target.
IOW hearers only are those people that claim they have faith in Jesus, but that's it, no good works accompany their faith, and therefore it is easy to say that they were never saved in the first place. James is right on target.
The bible does not distinquish. Jesus just says teach them and baptize them. Also he says, those that believe and are baptized are saved. No discussion about were you lost or saved, or did you truly have immersion with the HS, just simply teach and baptize, those who believe and are baptized shall be saved. Simple and sweet.
This is what happens when you isolate one half of one verse, ignore the second half of the verse and also ignore what Jesus said in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26 -- Are these verses simple and sweet as well?
Again, those who believe and are baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.
What about those who believe, but are unable to receive water baptism before they die, like the thief on the cross? Will they be saved? At what point do you believe someone is saved? The moment they believe or not until later, after they receive water baptism?
Again, those who believe and are baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.
What about those who believe, but are unable to receive water baptism before they die, like the thief on the cross? Will they be saved? At what point do you believe someone is saved? The moment they believe or not until later, after they receive water baptism?
I'm not sure why we are arguing this point. God said to baptize and he himself went to a man and was fully immersion baptized in water. It is a command of God to baptize, it is not a man-made doctrine. So stop with 'you are doing the work, not God'. That is a silly statement.
I do say all the commands of Jesus are necessary for salvation. Don't you? Not the works of the law of Moses, but the law of Christ. If you are not able to keep up, then fall back on your OSAS with no works added doctrine, and rip out any of the words that Jesus gave us in the NT, because apparently he was born, lived, and died during the law of Moses, and not the day of grace.
What an absurd argument.
I do say all the commands of Jesus are necessary for salvation. Don't you? Not the works of the law of Moses, but the law of Christ. If you are not able to keep up, then fall back on your OSAS with no works added doctrine, and rip out any of the words that Jesus gave us in the NT, because apparently he was born, lived, and died during the law of Moses, and not the day of grace.
What an absurd argument.
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I know people who have come to faith and gotten saved who have chaged their life drastically, show fruits which could only come from salvation, including change in sin life, and doing sacrificial work they would never think of doing befor
yet were so afraid of public speaking and standing up in front of people, they resisted baptism for a few years until they had more faith,
i guess according to ben and others, those people were never saved the who,e time they did all that fruit bearing, they had to wait until they stoo in front of hundreds and gave their testimony and allowed themselved to be immersed in water,
sad. So sad the ways they think.
All I can say is what the bible says: Jesus said, whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved. You take it from there.
I think you are the person that said God would not condemn you for not forgiving everyone their sins against you. Well, be careful with God's word. You seem to be willing to bend here a little and bend there a little so that you can fit Paul's grace preaching with the Jesus's good works preaching.
I think you are the person that said God would not condemn you for not forgiving everyone their sins against you. Well, be careful with God's word. You seem to be willing to bend here a little and bend there a little so that you can fit Paul's grace preaching with the Jesus's good works preaching.
Hi Mailmandan, another reason for the workers to believe that works are required for salvation is they are mixing our position in Christ, which is our imputed righteousness, and our practice, what we do after we are saved.
Born again believers will always be plentiful of works for Christ and That is our practice after salvation. Our position in Christ is the same as Abraham's, Christians are saved by grace through faith,
"Not By Works."
To continue to mix our position in Christ with our practice after we are saved, is a fallacy and a false doctrine that workers are pushing. We are saved by grace through faith, Not By Works, as was Abraham.
Abraham Justified by faith; And the Imputed Righteousness of Christ:
21) being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.
22) This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”
23) The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,
24) but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25) He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification
Born again believers will always be plentiful of works for Christ and That is our practice after salvation. Our position in Christ is the same as Abraham's, Christians are saved by grace through faith,
"Not By Works."
To continue to mix our position in Christ with our practice after we are saved, is a fallacy and a false doctrine that workers are pushing. We are saved by grace through faith, Not By Works, as was Abraham.
Abraham Justified by faith; And the Imputed Righteousness of Christ:
21) being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised.
22) This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”
23) The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,
24) but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25) He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification
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