Loss of salvation.

[Cee]

Direct quotes from who?

Iraeneus. Gnosticism at its core is that the world is evil. And we escape it through secret knowledge not knowing a Person. Their focus is on having a secret knowledge in order for souls to escape this materially evil world.

Here’s one excerpt I found regarding it on logos.com.

Gnosticism was characterized by:

• Dualism between essence and matter, light and darkness, spirit and body. (Most Gnostics, judging all things fleshly as sinful, were ascetics; others, judging all things fleshly as equally sinful, were hedonists.)
• A focus on enlightenment. The Gnostics thought that they, through divine revelation, possessed secret knowledge that would allow them to pass from earth up through the ringed heavens—enlightenment unavailable in Scripture alone. (Enlightened souls were the only thing on Earth worth redeeming.)
• A vastly different notion of Christ. God took mercy on darkened, matter-bound humanity, sending a redeemer—a redeemer whose body was, since flesh and pure spirit are incompatible, merely an illusion. Therefore, Jesus’ physical crucifixion was illusory, too.

Do you know what asceticism is? The Gnostics didn’t understand the righteousness of Christ and tried to make themselves righteous through secret knowledge. This is exactly what many do when they say we must “do” certain things to make ourselves “holy to God” instead of coming to Him to make us holy. It replaces relationship with whatever secret knowledge they decide is needed to escape this sinful existence.

 

[Metternich]

Your obsession with demanding PROOF for eternal security reminds me of this passage:
38 Then some of the scribes and Pharisees answered, saying, “Teacher, we want to SEE A SIGN from you.”
39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.


Our "proof" is in HIS sacrifice and subsequent resurrection.

Asking for a proof text from scripture is the same as the scribes and Pharisees asking for a sign??? One of scriptures functions is to provide instruction. If doctrine is to be based solely on scripture it seems like a reasonable request.

 

[tourist]

Asking for a proof text from scripture is the same as the scribes and Pharisees asking for a sign??? One of scriptures functions is to provide instruction. If doctrine is to be based solely on scripture it seems like a reasonable request.

In the book of Isaiah God says, "Come now, and let's reason together...line upon line, precept upon precept. A little here, a little there...".

Seems like a reasonable request to me also.

 

[Nehemiah6]

John said the person who does not practice righteousness is not born again.

That is a given. The one who has been deemed righteous must also be righteous -- practice righteousness.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Iraeneus.

I'd love to read that . Can you provide book and chapter? I assume he wrote that in Against Heresies.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Gnostics taught they had special knowledge only a select few culd have, this was secrete knowledge, thus not biblical knowledge, it was his knowledge that made them holy,

the bible was he last thing on their mind, it may be a great book t them, but they had special knowledge.

 

[Katy-follower]

A verse to remind these Free Grace people is 1 Co 6:9

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I get so tired of seeing this scripture get twisted constantly.

You missed that keyword "unrighteous". Those lifestyles are said to be engaged in continually by those who are not saved, because these people are of the world and have not been convicted of their sins.

V11 concludes it: "And such were some of you. But you (believers) were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God"

The distinction is made there. V11 addresses believers who have been made alive in Christ, who are no longer of the world. We're not sinless, but the point is that we don't have the same appetites that we did before we were saved. We've become new creatures in Christ.

 

[Metternich]

I get so tired of seeing this scripture get twisted constantly.

You missed that keyword "unrighteous". Those lifestyles are said to be engaged in continually by those who are not saved, because these people are of the world and have not been convicted of their sins.

V11 concludes it: "And such were some of you. But you (believers) were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God"

The distinction is made there. V11 addresses believers who have been made alive in Christ, who are no longer of the world. We're not sinless, but the point is that we don't have the same appetites that we did before we were saved. We've become new creatures in Christ.

Paul was writing to believers. Do you think any of his readers thought that unbelieving drunkards would inherit the kingdom of God. I do not think so. What they might be confused about was thinking that because they believed in Christ that they could commit these sins and still go to heaven. Paul was disabusing them of this notion.

 

[PennEd]

I can't find anything accurate in what you wrote. The gnostics taught that salvation was knowing the inner divine nature, whereas Christians taught that salvation came through doing GOD's will. That's what gnosis means - knowing.

Hmmm... Then I guess it's pretty dang important to find out what God's Will is in regards to Salvation!

[FONT=&quot]37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 AND THIS IS THE WILL OF HIM WHO SENT ME, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”[/FONT]

 

[Cee]

Scripture tells us eternal life is to know Him. Sanctification is through the process of knowing Him. This is why Paul discusses the fellowship of His sufferings as if it’s a good thing not as something we “must” do. Consider the Scripture that says those who are holy shall see the Lord. Or we shall see Him just as He sees us. Christ died so that we could be reconciled and joined to Him. And He is eternal life.

 

[Ralph-]

...we who are born again are the good trees that bear good fruit.

...thus showing themselves to be saved.

See how that works?


Aren't you Calvinist leaning?

 

[Katy-follower]

A verse to remind these Free Grace people is 1 Co 6:9

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I get so tired of seeing this scripture get twisted constantly.

You missed that keyword "unrighteous". Those lifestyles are said to be engaged in continually by those who are not saved, because these people are of the world and have not been convicted of their sins.

V11 concludes it: "And such were some of you. But you (believers) were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God"

The distinction is made there. V11 addresses believers who have been made alive in Christ, who are no longer of the world. We're not sinless, but the point is that we don't have the same appetites that we did before we were saved. We've become new creatures in Christ.

Paul was writing to believers. Do you think any of his readers thought that unbelieving drunkards would inherit the kingdom of God. I do not think so. What they might be confused about was thinking that because they believed in Christ that they could commit these sins and still go to heaven. Paul was disabusing them of this notion.

The earlier part of the chapter is speaking of handling issues, and not going to the lost to sue the brethren. The lost are of the world and not qualified to judge the redeemed. Believers will judge even angels, so how can they not resolve small matters amongst themselves. The Corinthians were acting no different from the lost, in that they were dragging each other before unbelievers to settle their differences over temporal things. Paul goes on to say "do you not know that the unrighteous (non believers) will not inherit the Kingdom?" This is a rhetorical question and makes a point to them since brother was suing brother before unbelievers. Not very Christ like, and not a good witness to the lost either.



Much can be gleaned from V9-10.

As I said, that word "unrighteous" is referring to the lost/non believers, who are spiritually dead. Confirmation is then given of the lifestyle sins continually engaged in by them, since they've not been convicted of their sins.

It says "do not be deceived.... practicing homosexuals are unrighteous/lost/shall not inherit... practicing thieves are unrighteous/lost/shall not inherit" etc. How many today live these lifestyles while professing to be a christian?... yet evidently they are not truly saved. And how many of them will one day pick up their bible and the HS will use that scripture to convict them!!

V11 confirms that believers, having become new creatures in Christ, no longer engage in continual sinful lifestyles like the lost world. As the verse says "such were some of you" (before you were saved, some of you used to be thieves and homosexuals, etc, but no longer). But as I said in my other post, we have different desires and appetites, but we're not sinless, and will often face temptations and end up sinning.

 

[Katy-follower]

Romans 8:38-39: For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"

That would include us, as created beings. But notice too how we're on the weaker end. If angels and powers can't separate us, then what makes anyone think that we ourselves could even do it?

The King's seal... signifies authenticity, ownership and authority

Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”

Yes, and only the King himself can break and remove the seal of ownership. Which he will do if you disown Him...

"If we deny (disown) Him, He also will deny (disown) us"-2 Timothy 2:12

The point made was that nothing we do can separate us from the love of God. He saved us when we were enemies!!... so then why would He forsake us? Nowhere in scripture does it say He breaks the seal. We are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption. You're trying to add something extra in there.

Dissecting 2 Timothy 2:11-13....


This is a faithful saying:


For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.

If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.

If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.


Those bits in red above are promises that give assurance to the believer.

The "denying" mentioned there is not speaking of a child of God losing salvation at all, because surely it would then contradict the promises made in red?! Some believe it's speaking of losing rewards, but I personally believe it's speaking of those who reject Christ for salvation. Like a pastor will often say "if we" when looking to address the church congregation, understanding that some listening are not saved. I can't see it any other way.

 

[Katy-follower]

The point made was that nothing we do can separate us from the love of God. He saved us when we were enemies!!... so then why would He forsake us? Nowhere in scripture does it say He breaks the seal. We are sealed UNTIL the day of redemption. You're trying to add something extra in there.

Dissecting 2 Timothy 2:11-13....


This is a faithful saying:


For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.

If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.

If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.


Those bits in red above are promises that give assurance to the believer.

The "denying" mentioned there is not speaking of a child of God losing salvation at all, because surely it would then contradict the promises made in red?! Some believe it's speaking of losing rewards, but I personally believe it's speaking of those who reject Christ for salvation. Like a pastor will often say "if we" when looking to address the church congregation, understanding that some listening are not saved. I can't see it any other way.

1 John 2:18-23:

"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also"

 

[fredoheaven]

I don't recall ever saying the Galatians were not saved and heirs to begin with. I'm the one who's been pointing out that the Galatians were real, true believers. The argument is, Paul is warning them that they will lose the salvation they have by going back to the law for justification and away from Christ.

Paul in the context never said they will lose salvation. Only that they were getting into a bondage in keeping ceremonial law so it is useless. Oh, they even were not going away from Christ it is because they were in Christ for eternity

You have assumed too much, bending scriptures and where Paul did says they will no longer be heirs because they were going into the law? I believe, Salvation is for eternity and it is not in the business of anyone to unloose it. It’s not you, not even me, not even Paul, not even the heavenly Father, not even Christ or the Holy Spirit. If so, then the triune God failed. IMHO you have used some theological word you cannot handle. You have used justification in an out of context. Justification is God declaring righteousness on the basis of one’s faith. In this kind of declaration, God can no longer disown, deny, disclaimed someone he already declared righteous. Perhaps you have a different God than I am serving, my God is not like a dog that eats backs to its own vomit.

 

[fredoheaven]

Paul is warning them that if they become slaves of the old covenant they will not have any inheritance along with the free sons of the New Covenant.

For 'once saved always saved' to be true you have to explain how a person can no longer be an heir (by seeking justification outside of Christ) but still be an heir.

Oh I am sorry Ralph, this is not what Paul says in the context. Again he warns those believers that going into a law is useless, they were just putting themselves into bondage, but there is no loss of salvation

 

[Katy-follower]

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Romans 8:28-30: "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"

 

[Nehemiah6]

... it was his knowledge that made them holy...

Holiness was not a priority for Gnostics.

GNOSTICISM IS THE TEACHING

based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means... Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence.

 

[Cee]

There is a difference in teaching as Paul did that sin isn’t our master and teaching sin doesn’t matter.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Holiness was not a priority for Gnostics.

based on Gnosis, the knowledge of transcendence arrived at by way of interior, intuitive means... Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence.

One of the hyper-grace teachers said that sin is a symptom of a confused identity. I think that matches what I bolded in your quote rather well.