Not By Works
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Hi Decon, in regards to the apostles creed, and weather it is accurate or not says Endocopy, the whole creed itself is wrong because the bible states we should not take an OATH. It does not matter if each and every proclamation of the apostles creed is true, because the whole document is un-biblical. Christians should never partake in swearing to an oath.
When you proclaim that everything in the apostle's creed is true, you are swearing an oath that you believe, that every word of this document is true and nothing but the truth, it is wrong to do this.
OATH taking: from Jesus Sermon on the Mount
Matthew5:33-35
33) "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’
34) But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
35) or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King"
When you proclaim that everything in the apostle's creed is true, you are swearing an oath that you believe, that every word of this document is true and nothing but the truth, it is wrong to do this.
OATH taking: from Jesus Sermon on the Mount
Matthew5:33-35
33) "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’
34) But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
35) or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King"
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You seem to be the one with most of the Problem, along with a couple others.
MOST OF THE REST OF US, are pretty much in TOTAL AGREEMENT.
Perhaps here is what YOU MISSED:
1 Corinthians 2:6-16 (NIV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"--
[SUP]10 [/SUP] but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.
And impossible to understand for those who have not let the Holy Spirit birth their dead spirit into Eternal Life.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NCV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] A person who does not have the Spirit does not accept the truths that come from the Spirit of God. That person thinks they are foolish and cannot understand them, because they can only be judged to be true by the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NCV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] A person who does not have the Spirit does not accept the truths that come from the Spirit of God. That person thinks they are foolish and cannot understand them, because they can only be judged to be true by the Spirit.
Please show us the scripture that says dead faith can save.
Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:17
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
Not the works of the law, not works that earn, but the work or action of obedience.
The obedience of faith.
We receive faith by hearing God.
However if if we do not do, what God says then our faith is dead.
Abraham received faith when commanded by God to sacrifice Issac.
Abraham’s faith was “activated” or “made alive” by he actually obeyed God by sacrificing Issac on the altar, in which his faith produced the intended divine result of justifying Abraham.
So you statement that says “faith alone” justifies is completely false and shows you do not understand the law of faith.
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26
- the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
This scripture says the commandment of God for the obedience of faith, not faith alone.
JLB
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Then explain to me why gospel preaching denominations use pouring and sprinkling. Many years ago I did research on this and found 2 possible words that could be the root of the word baptism. One was dying cloth and the other was a variation of washing of feet. One implies immersion while the other implies pouring and sprinkling. I have posted this before. This is an issue where we have to agree to disagree and POLITELY make our point. One poster seems to forget this.
You and others keep refusing to understand what a statement of doctrine is. You also seem to accuse the early elders of error in creating this. Historically as early as the 200s there were heresies and legitimate differences of opinion on issues. First the doctrinal statement of the Roman Creed was created. By 390 the elders felt the need to create a more detailed statement of doctrine and created the Apostles Creed. I keep asking and receive no answer to what errors are in the doctrinal statement in the Apostles Creed. What keeps being said is it shouldn't be used for various purposes other than the purpose it was created for. A simple statement of doctrine of the minimum of what a Christian must believe. This is to define who is and isn't a Christian. Belief contrary to it is going into heresy. All denominations have online statements of their denominations doctrine. The RCA uses the Heidelberg Catechism and the Canons of Dort. Presbyterian PCA uses the Heidelberg Catechism.
Therefore I asked previously where is any error in the Apostles Creed and never received a reply to that request. I suggest strongly that any criticism of it must first deal with that issue and not how some use it. Is it scriptural or not!
Therefore I asked previously where is any error in the Apostles Creed and never received a reply to that request. I suggest strongly that any criticism of it must first deal with that issue and not how some use it. Is it scriptural or not!
In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works. He was "shown to be righteous."
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of action/obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works/works of obedience from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40), so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works/works of obedience) argument (which I often hear from Roman Catholics) is bogus.
Abraham's faith was already activated or made alive many years before he obeyed God by sacrificing Issac on the altar (Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:2-3).
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
We are justified "accounted as righteous" through faith in Christ alone (Romans 5:1) and justified "shown to be righteous" by works (James 2:14-24).
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
In regards to "the obedience of faith," just as in Romans 1:5, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.
Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works. So it's still salvation by grace through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.
In James 2:15-16, the example of a "work" that James gives is: "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?" To give a brother or sister these things needed for the body would certainly be a "good work/work of action/obedience" yet to neglect such a brother or sister and not give them the things needed for the body is to break the second great commandment "love your neighbor as yourself" (Matthew 22:39) as found written in the law of Moses (Leviticus 19:18).
*When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works/works of obedience from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40), so the not saved by "these" works (works of the law) but saved by "those" works (good works/works of obedience) argument (which I often hear from Roman Catholics) is bogus.
Abraham's faith was already activated or made alive many years before he obeyed God by sacrificing Issac on the altar (Genesis 15:5-6; Romans 4:2-3).
In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on the merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.
In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.
James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).
We are justified "accounted as righteous" through faith in Christ alone (Romans 5:1) and justified "shown to be righteous" by works (James 2:14-24).
In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:
1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will appear to be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.
God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was justified, "shown to be righteous".
Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
In regards to "the obedience of faith," just as in Romans 1:5, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.
Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/works. So it's still salvation by grace through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.
You and others keep refusing to understand what a statement of doctrine is. You also seem to accuse the early elders of error in creating this. Historically as early as the 200s there were heresies and legitimate differences of opinion on issues. First the doctrinal statement of the Roman Creed was created By 390 the elders felt the need to create a more detailed statement of doctrine and created the Apostles Creed. I keep asking and receive no answer to what errors are in the doctrinal statement in the Apostles Creed. What keeps being said is it shouldn't be used for various purposes other than the purpose it was created for. A simple statement of doctrine of the minimum of what a Christian must believe. This is to define who is and isn't a Christian. Belief contrary to it is going into heresy. All denominations have online statements of their denominations doctrine. The RCA uses the Heidelberg Catechism and the Canons of Dort. Presbyterian PCA uses the Heidelberg Catechism.
Therefore I asked previously where is any error in the Apostles Creed and never received a reply to that request. I suggest strongly that any criticism of it must first deal with that issue and not how some use it. Is it scriptural or not!
Addendum
I always look at the context of single verses. It seems that the not taking of an oath is not to replace a simple yes or no.
Matthew 5 AMPC
33 Again, you have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not swear falsely, but you shall perform your oaths to the Lord [as a religious duty].
34 But I tell you, Do not bind yourselves by an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is the throne of God;
35 Or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
36 And do not swear by your head, for you are not able to make a single hair white or black.
37 Let your Yes be simply Yes, and your No be simply No; anything more than that comes from the evil one.
Therefore I asked previously where is any error in the Apostles Creed and never received a reply to that request. I suggest strongly that any criticism of it must first deal with that issue and not how some use it. Is it scriptural or not!
Addendum
I always look at the context of single verses. It seems that the not taking of an oath is not to replace a simple yes or no.
Matthew 5 AMPC
33 Again, you have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not swear falsely, but you shall perform your oaths to the Lord [as a religious duty].
34 But I tell you, Do not bind yourselves by an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is the throne of God;
35 Or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
36 And do not swear by your head, for you are not able to make a single hair white or black.
37 Let your Yes be simply Yes, and your No be simply No; anything more than that comes from the evil one.
<><.t.><>
Name me one Country that does not have a river that flows through it?
Name me one Congregation that could not use the Water to irrigate the Vegetables?
The only reason, is the belief that GOD can do with ONE DROP of Water, what HE can do with a whole River of Water.
But that is NOT the IMMERSION or ONE BAPTISM of:
Ephesians 4:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] There is one body {Spiritual body of Jesus Christ} and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope at your calling—
[SUP]5 [/SUP] one Lord, one faith, one baptism, {immersion into that body}
<><.t.><>
The ONLY form of BAPTISM THAT EVERY SINGLE TRUE BELIEVER participated in, is THIS ONE:
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
AND THAT IS THE ONLY BAPTISM THAT INCLUDES THE THIEF ON THE CROSS, or any other death bed confession.
Name me one Country that does not have a river that flows through it?
Name me one Congregation that could not use the Water to irrigate the Vegetables?
The only reason, is the belief that GOD can do with ONE DROP of Water, what HE can do with a whole River of Water.
But that is NOT the IMMERSION or ONE BAPTISM of:
Ephesians 4:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] There is one body {Spiritual body of Jesus Christ} and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope at your calling—
[SUP]5 [/SUP] one Lord, one faith, one baptism, {immersion into that body}
<><.t.><>
The ONLY form of BAPTISM THAT EVERY SINGLE TRUE BELIEVER participated in, is THIS ONE:
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
AND THAT IS THE ONLY BAPTISM THAT INCLUDES THE THIEF ON THE CROSS, or any other death bed confession.
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<><.t.><>
Name me one Country that does not have a river that flows through it?
Name me one Congregation that could not use the Water to irrigate the Vegetables?
The only reason, is the belief that GOD can do with ONE DROP of Water, what HE can do with a whole River of Water.
But that is NOT the IMMERSION or ONE BAPTISM of:
Ephesians 4:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] There is one body {Spiritual body of Jesus Christ} and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope at your calling—
[SUP]5 [/SUP] one Lord, one faith, one baptism, {immersion into that body}
<><.t.><>
The ONLY form of BAPTISM THAT EVERY SINGLE TRUE BELIEVER participated in, is THIS ONE:
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
AND THAT IS THE ONLY BAPTISM THAT INCLUDES THE THIEF ON THE CROSS, or any other death bed confession.
Name me one Country that does not have a river that flows through it?
Name me one Congregation that could not use the Water to irrigate the Vegetables?
The only reason, is the belief that GOD can do with ONE DROP of Water, what HE can do with a whole River of Water.
But that is NOT the IMMERSION or ONE BAPTISM of:
Ephesians 4:4-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] There is one body {Spiritual body of Jesus Christ} and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope at your calling—
[SUP]5 [/SUP] one Lord, one faith, one baptism, {immersion into that body}
<><.t.><>
The ONLY form of BAPTISM THAT EVERY SINGLE TRUE BELIEVER participated in, is THIS ONE:
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For as the body is one and has many parts, and all the parts of that body, though many, are one body—so also is Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
AND THAT IS THE ONLY BAPTISM THAT INCLUDES THE THIEF ON THE CROSS, or any other death bed confession.
Explain away please!!
PS: How about cities here in the US near Death Valley. Your geology is extremely flawed!!
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