Loss of salvation.

[BillG]

You lose your salvation by commiting a serious sin. For those who see no distinction among sins look at the Old Testament law and the punishments for each sin. They range from making a sin offering or public humiliation to the death penalty. Death penalty sins cause you to lose your salvation until you return to God with a contrite heart and a firm purpose of amendment and ask for forgiveness.

So what serious sin in the New Testament would one have to commit to lose salvation?
Are you saying that a serious sin as per the OT is the same as in the NT with the same consequences?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

i did not imply that is all a saving faith is

"Biblical saving faith is to believe and act upon that belief and to grab hold of Christ with a sense of desperation, knowing that without Him I will die, and be doomed to hell forever. Saving faith leans upon Christ, depends upon him, and then has a relationship with Him."

this is also not the only way to describe a saving faith though i would agree that all of this can be used in part to describe a saving faith i would add that a saving faith endures

and one that does not endure isnt a saving faith


id also could add fruit follows the new heart and spirit throughout our walk



mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.


______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root

their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth
____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

again no root... not born again
no enduring faith

trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith
______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.


no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him

(like the reprobate)

never born again

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________



20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.


theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him

1 peter

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

we are those who no doubt continue in the faith

1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
not those who fall away into unbelief

sorry chester i meant to post it like this


i posted the 1 john verse in the wrong spot

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Here is the post.

You have come across as defining what you think the characteristics of my faith is based on what you think I have described.
Therefore you have labeled me.

What I find extraordinary is that a Christian brother thinks he has a right to condemn me for simply discussing doctrinal ideas. If you can't tell the difference between discussing ideas and labeling persons, then there's really no point in us having a conversation because you will just be offended for no reason.

 

[Metternich]

So what serious sin in the New Testament would one have to commit to lose salvation?
Are you saying that a serious sin as per the OT is the same as in the NT with the same consequences?

1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities

1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Romans 3:22 - Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[Metternich]

So what serious sin in the New Testament would one have to commit to lose salvation?
Are you saying that a serious sin as per the OT is the same as in the NT with the same consequences?

When I say death penalty I am speaking of spiritual death and not physical death. But God has the power to bring us back to life if we only go to him with a contrite heart and a firm purpose of amendment and ask him for forgiveness.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well yes, this would explain why you would consider being born again in Christ as Gnosticism and the assurance of eternal life when one is born again a problem....

This is what Iranaeus preached

"But to the righteous and holy, and those who have kept his commandments and have remained in his love…he will by his grace give life incorrupt, and will clothe them with eternal glory" (ch.10:1). Against Heresies, Book I,

Reads like salvation by works to me.

Reads like the words of the lord to me.

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

And, no, I don't consider being born from above gnosticism. It is what enables us to live the life described above by Jesus and Irenaeus.

 

[Metternich]

Isaiah 53:11 - He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities

1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Romans 3:22 - Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Are you saying you could commit adultery and not repent of it and still go to heaven?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Reads like the words of the lord to me.

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

And, no, I don't consider being born from above gnosticism. It is what enables us to live the life described above by Jesus and Irenaeus.

please dont use verses so far out of context

that has nothing to do with those who lost salvation

that has to do with those He NEVER knew

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



and because He never knew them

they are judged according to their own righteousness and still have every single sin to answer for

not being covered by the righteousness of Jesus

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Are you saying you could commit adultery and not repent of it and still go to heaven?

im saying if you are a child of God

His righteousness is imputed to you


if you are His you already have repented from unbelief
and He continues to work a greater repentence in you

3340. metanoeó ►
Strong's Concordance
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I repent, change my mind
Definition: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.



but if you believe every time you sin
you lose His imputed righteousness

you are trusting in yourself to keep you saved

that is not faith in Him

 

[joefizz]

You lose your salvation by commiting a serious sin. For those who see no distinction among sins look at the Old Testament law and the punishments for each sin. They range from making a sin offering or public humiliation to the death penalty. Death penalty sins cause you to lose your salvation until you return to God with a contrite heart and a firm purpose of amendment and ask for forgiveness.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.



___________

James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

_______________

romans 3

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


____________

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

please dont use verses so far out of context

that has nothing to do with those who lost salvation

that has to do with those He NEVER knew

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



and because He never knew them

they are judged according to their own righteousness and still have every single sin to answer for

not being covered by the righteousness of Jesus

But they thought (think) they were (are) doing GOD's will.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.



___________

James 2:10
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

_______________

romans 3

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


____________

romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

romans 10
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above

 

[NoNameMcgee]

But they thought (think) they were (are) doing GOD's will.

yup so much so they boasted their works to Him thinking they were righteous enough


but the point stands

He never knew them

 

[Metternich]

im saying if you are a child of God

His righteousness is imputed to you


if you are His you already have repented from unbelief
and He continues to work a greater repentence in you

3340. metanoeó ►
Strong's Concordance
metanoeó: to change one's mind or purpose
Original Word: μετανοέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: metanoeó
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an-o-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I repent, change my mind
Definition: I repent, change my mind, change the inner man (particularly with reference to acceptance of the will of God), repent.



but if you believe every time you sin
you lose His imputed righteousness

you are trusting in yourself to keep you saved

that is not faith in Him

Did you not see my post on 2 Pet 2:20-21? The sinner repents just as you define it above and this causes them to escape the defilements of the world and then they turn again back to the pollutions of the world. Peter says it would be better for them had they never believed in the first place. That is a horrifying thought to be worse off than an unbeliever.

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

 

[Magenta]

Reads like the words of the lord to me.

​“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew 7:21​

And, no, I don't consider being born from above gnosticism. It is what enables us to live the life described above by Jesus and Irenaeus.

I used to see some people saying things like you cannot sin once you have been born again, and that it was even a sin to identify as a sinner once you have been born again. They made such a "thing" of the incorruptible Seed within that they seemingly dismissed the fact that we while we remain in this temporal world, we are still in the corruptible flesh.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

yup so much so they boasted their works to Him thinking they were righteous enough

but the point stands

He never knew them

That's because they didn't do his will. That doesn't change the fact that they thought of themselves as Christians.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Did you not see my post on 2 Pet 2:20-21? The sinner repents just as you define it above and this causes them to escape the defilements of the world and then they turn again back to the pollutions of the world. Peter says it would be better for them had they never believed in the first place. That is a horrifying thought to be worse off than an unbeliever.

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

out of context

these are the reprobate who forsake knowledge

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.


no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him

(like the reprobate)

never born again

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient


these are not born again sons or daughters of God

 

[mailmandan]

1 Cor 6:9-10
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

This is descriptive of the unrighteousness, not the righteous. *Keep reading: 1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.