In the early church there were heresies and many differences of opinion. The early elders in the 200s created the Roman Creed. Later by 390 it was updated to the Apostles Creed. This defined the doctrine of what a Christian must believe. Everything else was to agree to disagree. Thus today we have diverse denominations. Before the reformation the differences were dabated inside the church. The great schism under Constantine created the orthodox and catholic branches. Mostly tied to the location when Constantine moved his capital to Constantinople. Rome was catholic and Constantinople was orthodox. Later they were capitalized.
Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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i don't know, it's mysterious to me
He created Jonah, and knows exactly what to do to to bring Jonah to point where He Jonah should point, and to do it in a perfect way. if He changes my desire, if He opens my eyes and i act on what i see, then has He caused me? what does 'forced' mean? against my will? but He renews, and that changes will.
prophecy can't exist without predestination.
i was saying in another thread, where ((i think)) someone is arguing that Saul wasn't saved until water baptism, how God says explicitly that he is "chosen" -- at what point then is Paul/Saul actually 'saved'? when he was chosen? before the foundation of the world!
is there any sense in putting a definite 'time' down as a maker, at all?
the whole free-will/predestination thing: isn't there a logical fallacy of 'excluded middle' in that argument?
i like what you're posting, but it makes me think, and it makes me think, maybe that's not quite right; maybe i shouldn't hit 'like' button haha. yet sometimes i 'like' all kinds of posts sometimes even when i see people thinking and asking good questions even if i don't agree with what i think they are thinking
The free will/predestination issue ignores that God knew the end from the begining when He set creation in motion. We have free will but God knows what we will do. He did this knowing the cross was in His future. This always blows my mind that He loves us so much He did it anyway.
You are spot on when you said salvation is apart from works. But God will bring us separate rewards for our works.
Matt. 25:28, 29 "Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath."
Matt. 25:21 "His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."
Mark 9:41 "For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward."
Matt. 25:28, 29 "Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents. For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath."
Matt. 25:21 "His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."
Mark 9:41 "For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward."
E
i don't know, it's mysterious to me
He created Jonah, and knows exactly what to do to to bring Jonah to point where He Jonah should point, and to do it in a perfect way. if He changes my desire, if He opens my eyes and i act on what i see, then has He caused me? what does 'forced' mean? against my will? but He renews, and that changes will.
prophecy can't exist without predestination.
i was saying in another thread, where ((i think)) someone is arguing that Saul wasn't saved until water baptism, how God says explicitly that he is "chosen" -- at what point then is Paul/Saul actually 'saved'? when he was chosen? before the foundation of the world!
is there any sense in putting a definite 'time' down as a maker, at all?
the whole free-will/predestination thing: isn't there a logical fallacy of 'excluded middle' in that argument?
i like what you're posting, but it makes me think, and it makes me think, maybe that's not quite right; maybe i shouldn't hit 'like' button haha. yet sometimes i 'like' all kinds of posts sometimes even when i see people thinking and asking good questions even if i don't agree with what i think they are thinking
When i see jonah, i see god helping to direct his path, but jonah had to chose to obey, jonah was in the belly for three days, jonah could have said no, he chose to say yes, god did not force him to do it.
god is soverign, and he is omniscient, this is how he can predestine, my will will not stop gods plan, if god knows no matter what he does i will say no, he will get someone else who will work, his will will be done inspite of me, i will lose out on the blessing of what god would do, but god will still see his will done.
he has a perspective we can not understand.
E
To me, God called him that with the knowledge paul would do what god wanted him to do, just like he rose pharoah to power because he knew he would react the way he did,
God did not force Saul/Paul to become his chosen vessel against his will. Saul/Paul willingly did what he did,
Again, foreknowledge is the key,
God did not force Saul/Paul to become his chosen vessel against his will. Saul/Paul willingly did what he did,
Again, foreknowledge is the key,
New International Version 1984 1 Corinthians 2:10-16 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man’s judgment: “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
E
Foreknowldge is just that, foreknowledge
in gods omniscience he knows what a person will do in his lifetime, he knows what it will take for a person to do his will, he knows if no matter what he does, a person will not respond.
I do not have forknowlegde, i can guess if i do this for you how you may react, but i do not know, a finite created being does and can know. Thats why heis will will be accomlished no matter what.
If God knew paul would have not responded, he would have chose someone else, and we most likely would never know who saul was. But god not only knew paul would say yes, he set up his life to prepair him for what he needed after he said yes.
E
Yes he did, he also gave us free will, because he wanted to have a relationship with us, remove free will and your remove the ability t have a relationship,
i am not the same person i was 30 years ago, i chose to go in certain directions and that helped make me who i am today (good or bad)
he did not study after the fact, he knew before, as david saidm while i was in my mothers womb you knew me.
We do not suprise God, hitler and other evil people did not suprise god, god knew who they were,
Matthew 7:21-23 (HCSB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but ⌊only⌋ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’ {WHEN the APOSTLES CREED came in effect, most would have said it every Sunday. And, NOTICE ALL THE DEEDS THEY DID, Supposedly IN HIS NAME. NO it is NOT how many deeds you do that equals SALVATION, but rather the INNER, PERSONAL, LOVE RELATIONSHIP with THE LORD, meaning MASTER; that counts.}
[SUP]23[/SUP]Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’
The Apostles Creed does not deal with ALMOST NOTHING you must believe to be SAVED. I know, I was raised in a Church where we recited the Apostles Creed every Sunday. I acknowledged those were the facts about JESUS CHRIST; YET, I was NOT SAVED (BORN AGAIN) until I was almost 29 years old. Reciting memorized Historical Facts DOES NOT SAVE YOU. Even the DEMONS in the Demoniacs at Gadera WOULD have pronounced those SAME FACTS about Jesus:
Mark 5:1-13 (NKJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] Then they came to the other side of the sea, to the country of the Gadarenes.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And when He had come out of the boat, immediately there met Him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
[SUP]3 [/SUP] who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no one could bind him, not even with chains,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] because he had often been bound with shackles and chains. And the chains had been pulled apart by him, and the shackles broken in pieces; neither could anyone tame him.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] And always, night and day, he was in the mountains and in the tombs, crying out and cutting himself with stones.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] When he saw Jesus from afar, he ran and worshiped Him.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] And he cried out with a loud voice and said, "What have I to do with You, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God that You do not torment me."
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For He said to him, "Come out of the man, unclean spirit!"
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Then He asked him, "What is your name?" And he answered, saying, "My name is Legion; for we are many."
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Also he begged Him earnestly that He would not send them out of the country.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Now a large herd of swine was feeding there near the mountains.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] So all the demons begged Him, saying, "Send us to the swine, that we may enter them."
[SUP]13 [/SUP] And at once Jesus gave them permission. Then the unclean spirits went out and entered the swine (there were about two thousand); and the herd ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and drowned in the sea.
My opinion, the Apostles Creed IS MOSTLY FOR LAZY PEOPLE, WHO DO NOT WANT TO STUDY THE WORD. So that they can feel GOOD about themselves, and even think they are SAVED, even though their Bibles stay on the SHELVE collecting Dust. When the HOLY SPIRIT COMES IN, YOU WILL WANT TO HUNGER AND THIRST FOR THE WORD, IT IS PART OF THE NEW NATURE OF THOSE WHO ARE TRULY BORN AGAIN. In other words, for most people the Apostles Creed, only ushers people through the Wide Gate, and onto the Road to Destruction in Hell.
BORN AGAIN, is the ONLY way to HEAVEN. And that is the INNER, PERSONAL, LOVE RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST, SUBMITTING TO HIM OUT OF THAT GOD-GIVEN LOVE, AS LORD, MEANING MASTER. WHILE YOU ARE REMORSING AND REPENTING OF YOUR UTTER SINFULNESS. The Entrance into your heart of the HOLY SPIRIT, brings DEEP CONVICTION, AND HE BRINGS THE ANSWER TO RECEIVING JESUS AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD. Your Apostles Creed covers NONE of THAT.
NOTICE WHAT THE APOSTLES CREED DOES NOT SAY:
I believe in God the Father Almighty,
Maker of heaven and earth,
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord,
Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
Born of the Virgin Mary,
Suffered under Pontius Pilate,
Was crucified, dead, and buried.
He descended into hell;
The third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven,
And sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Ghost;
The Holy catholic Church,
the Communion of Saints;
The Forgiveness of sins;
The Resurrection of the body,
And the Life everlasting. Amen.
It is a proclamation about FACTS about JESUS, intellectual HEAD knowledge ONLY. AND NO ONE CAN BE SAVED BY ONLY RECITING THE FACTS ABOUT JESUS' LIFE. How many people do you think are on the Broad Road to Destruction in HELL, because they THOUGHT, reciting that prayer SAVED THEM?
EVEN IN THE LINE THAT READS The Forgiveness of sins; LEADS PEOPLE TO BELIEVE NO NEED FOR REMORSE OVER SINFULNESS.
I repeat, FACTS about JESUS' LIFE DO NOT SAVE YOU. An Honest, Loving, Personal, Intimate RELATIONSHIP with JESUS AS LORD of your LIFE, will SAVE.
As HE has said, ‘I never knew you!'
NO, that is not WORKS RIGHTEOUSNESS, it is the Person and the WORK of the HOLY SPIRIT that brings genuine Conviction (Acts 2:37, Psalm 31:9-10), Repentance (1 John 1:9, Rev. 3:3), Pouring out of GOD's LOVE into your heart (Rom.5:5), Immersion into the Spiritual Body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:11-13), and the ability to understand Spiritual Truth (1 Corinthians 2:4-16).
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I believe I responded that it at least had to do with taking care of our fellow Christians. IOW doing good works like visiting the captive, clothing the naked, healing the sick, feeding the hungry etc., etc., etc. Isn't there a scripture that talks about this, having to do with who are considered sheep and who are considered goats in the eyes of Jesus?
I believe the law of Christ is more dynamic than the law of Moses. For instance, Jesus says that Moses says that if you have adultry with a woman you have broken the law. But Jesus says that if you look on a woman with lust, you have committed adultry with her in your heart. Which one of these sayings is the more difficult to live. Moses and his law, or Jesus and his law? There are many more for instances I could give you.
I believe the law of Christ is more dynamic than the law of Moses. For instance, Jesus says that Moses says that if you have adultry with a woman you have broken the law. But Jesus says that if you look on a woman with lust, you have committed adultry with her in your heart. Which one of these sayings is the more difficult to live. Moses and his law, or Jesus and his law? There are many more for instances I could give you.
You are acting like Endoscopy only follows the apostles creed? I suspect he studies his bible at least as much as you do.
The apostels creed was simply a distinguishing document to identify that you were a true Christian before the bible even existed.
So I would not bend over backwards to berate Endoscopy his belief in the apostles creed. It does captsulize what we believe in the now existent bible, but is not the bible and I am sure he knows that. And BTW he is your fellow Christian.
The apostels creed was simply a distinguishing document to identify that you were a true Christian before the bible even existed.
So I would not bend over backwards to berate Endoscopy his belief in the apostles creed. It does captsulize what we believe in the now existent bible, but is not the bible and I am sure he knows that. And BTW he is your fellow Christian.
J
Depends on the individual,because the law can't be kept but many will try and seemeth good,but following what Jesus says to do can be just as "tough" because the "law of Moses" was a bunch of "orders" that gave leeway for someone to have an evil heart yet live so long as the individual did those orders where as Jesus's "sayings" and "statutes" teach a "more right" way to be instead of just blindly "following orders".
The law of Moses though serves as "guidelines" now because though it is still "around" and not "done away with" due to Jesus's works his blood is on us keeping us from dieing unto the law so it makes sense to not be so "anxious" to seek to keep the law of Moses since thanks to Jesus it holds no "binding" on us.
The law of Moses though serves as "guidelines" now because though it is still "around" and not "done away with" due to Jesus's works his blood is on us keeping us from dieing unto the law so it makes sense to not be so "anxious" to seek to keep the law of Moses since thanks to Jesus it holds no "binding" on us.
Philippians 2:13 For God is working in you, giving you the desire and the power to do what pleases him...
Is that not God working in us to do His Will...xox...
Is that not God working in us to do His Will
...xox...
Being a puppet may sound good to you, but I don't think God wants you to be a puppet. He wants you to feel His promptings and respond so that your will is in perfect harmony with his will. Then it works.
