Loss of salvation.

[bible_teacher]

In Romans 1:19, it talks about those who "knew God", in other words, they had a personal relationship with God. In verse 23, it says they exchanged the glory of God for images & idols. In other words, they willfully walked away from their faith and became worldly. In verse 28, it tells us that since they did this, God gave them over to a depraved mind.

So, Jesus was right when He said nobody can snatch us out of His hand .... but God has given us freedom of choice, and He will never force us to love Him. Therefore, we do have the ability to walk away from God on our own.

And that answers your question ..... when we choose to follow the world instead of God, we lose our salvation.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

In Romans 1:19, it talks about those who "knew God", in other words, they had a personal relationship with God. In verse 23, it says they exchanged the glory of God for images & idols. In other words, they willfully walked away from their faith and became worldly. In verse 28, it tells us that since they did this, God gave them over to a depraved mind.

So, Jesus was right when He said nobody can snatch us out of His hand .... but God has given us freedom of choice, and He will never force us to love Him. Therefore, we do have the ability to walk away from God on our own.

And that answers your question ..... when we choose to follow the world instead of God, we lose our salvation.

no

knowledge of God doesnt mean saving faith

just like the reprobate who forsake their knowledge of Him and are given over to all forms of wickedness


no verse in the bible speaks of a born again believer losing salvation

(or turning from belief)


those who say Lord Lord before they boast of their works

He makes very clear to say "i NEVER knew you"

in john ans hebrews those who leave us

are not of us

and we are not of....

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Sir, I did not feel you came across as rude or arrogant or any such thing - I have no problem with your approach. And though I don't agree with you on everything, I take you as a wonderful brother in Christ.

I am in agreement with you that I see nothing as being able to shake my confidence or my faith in Christ. Where I may differ with you is I believe (in fact, I very well know) that within me lies the moral capability to completely throw out Christ and become apostate. To say that is not possible is to completely deny and be blind to my moral capability.

hmmmm....

forgive me

but i dont understand


are you saying

you can CHOOSE to stop having faith in Jesus Christ?


this isnt a moral issue


morals save no one

we (and you know this) are saved by grace through faith


you believe

that you can just no longer have faith in Christ if you decided you no longer want to believe?


you dont think God would chasten you and correct you?

Hebrews 12:


6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live

 

[Chester]

hmmmm....

forgive me

but i dont understand


are you saying

you can CHOOSE to stop having faith in Jesus Christ?


this isnt a moral issue


morals save no one

we (and you know this) are saved by grace through faith


you believe

that you can just no longer have faith in Christ if you decided you no longer want to believe?


you dont think God would chasten you and correct you?

Hebrews 12:


6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live

(1) LOL! "You don't understand" - Are you telling me that you do not have the moral capability to choose to stop believing? I have the moral capability to choose to stop believing.

(2) Would God chasten and correct me? Of course He would - but God is not a fierce unfeeling taskmaster who would even kill me (as some have told me) before he would let me choose to stop believing in Him

 

[bible_teacher]

I am glad you pursued a degree in theology. Which seminary did you graduate from? Also, it should be our intent to discuss (with Godly grace) the things about God's Word, but not to 'argue points'. God bless.

 

[Katy-follower]

The seal and the promise are conditional on present believing. Not on works, but on present believing.

That scripture says that the moment we believed, we were sealed.... and the seal is UNTIL the day of redemption, so won't be broken.

Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2)

Philippians 1:6: ".....being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ"

Romans 8:28-30: "And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"

 

[NoNameMcgee]

(1) LOL! "You don't understand" - Are you telling me that you do not have the moral capability to choose to stop believing? I have the moral capability to choose to stop believing.

(2) Would God chasten and correct me? Of course He would - but God is not a fierce unfeeling taskmaster who would even kill me (as some have told me) before he would let me choose to stop believing in Him

1) no i cannot stop believing
if i said oh i dont believe id be lying.....

and i would still believe

because i know God is who He says

He has shown me too much for me to deny that in my heart

are you also able to believe the answer to 2+2 is 17 if you chose to?

i mean for someone without a new heart sure
they can stop believing

but youre telling me.... YOU are capable of going to bed tonight

capable of denying Jesus

you can say He isnt who He says He is

and BELIEVE your own words?


no.... i dont think you are capable of that

not if you have a new heart and spirit

you can deny Him with your mouth like peter

but not your heart

i think youre arguing a point

but i bet no matter what you told yourself

you would KNOW in your heart... Jesus is Christ
heaven is heaven
hell is hell
and you can believe every single letter in the inspired written word


that is what real faith in something is...
you actually believe it... regardless of anything telling you otherwise

 

[bible_teacher]

That scripture does not say anything about "once saved always saved."
I respect your take on this topic, but I do disagree with you. Any further conversation will be of a confrontational nature and we should both try our best to avoid that. May God bless your study of Scripture.

 

[Katy-follower]

You are absolutely right! For who can unseal that which was sealed by the Holy Spirit? None, as far as the Bible is concerned.

Romans 8:38-39: For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"

That would include us, as created beings. But notice too how we're on the weaker end. If angels and powers can't separate us, then what makes anyone think that we ourselves could even do it?

 

[Katy-follower]

The King's seal... signifies authenticity, ownership and authority

Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”

 

[Ralph-]

The King's seal... signifies...ownership...

Esther 8:8: "You yourselves write a decree concerning the Jews, as you please, in the king’s name, and seal it with the king’s signet ring; for whatever is written in the king’s name and sealed with the king’s signet ring no one can revoke.”

Yes, and only the King himself can break and remove the seal of ownership. Which he will do if you disown Him...


"If we deny (disown) Him, He also will deny (disown) us"-2 Timothy 2:12


"8The Lord himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.
20...they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant.
16...They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them"-Deuteronomy 31:8,20,16-17

 

[LW97]

Yes, and only the King himself can break and remove the seal of ownership. Which he will do if you disown Him...


"If we deny (disown) Him, He also will deny (disown) us"-2 Timothy 2:12


"8The Lord himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.
20...they will turn to other gods and worship them, rejecting me and breaking my covenant.
16...They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them"-Deuteronomy 31:8,20,16-17

If you read 2 Timothy 2:12 in context... it talks about whether we rule with him or not, not about salvation (if we suffer he will reign with us)

And Deuteronomy talks about the Covenant he made with Israel.

 

[LW97]

To me neither does a loving Father bring someone into saving faith knowing that at some point in the future they are going to reject it.

I think we would agree that he knows who is the lambs book of life before it is opened. Let me know if you don't think so.

So it doesn't make sense for him to call people who are not in it.
If that is the case then it is very cruel indeed.

I totally agree with your last paragraph.
If we are honest we get it wrong, go MIA, but he woos and loves, he even disciplines us.

But why woo, show love and discipline someone that you ultimately know you are going to banish to hell for eternity.

I'm not talking about the separation of the sheep and goats. The goats never knew him. Jesus said that.
So they have no faith, genuine saving faith to start with.
Same applies for those who claimed great works.

Amen, correct, it's God himself that keeps us from losing our salvation.

 

[LW97]

Well, if Paul had been talking about salvation and not rewards for service in the building and field of God you'd have a point. But since he is talking about rewards, not salvation, you do not have a point.

I was talking about "if ANY man"... So it involves any man in the body of Christ. So how do I not have a point?

 

[Ralph-]

I was talking about "if ANY man"... So it involves any man in the body of Christ. So how do I not have a point?

Because the context is rewards for ministry work in the body of Christ. It has nothing to do with a person having no personal holiness and still being saved despite his disobedience.

Besides, unless you believe in Hypergrace doctrine, the man with no personal deeds of righteousness is showing himself to not be saved, not saved despite his disobedience.

 

[Bladerunner]

All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. Gen 7:22

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. John 3:8

So where does the wind go seeing that you are hearing the moving air molecules and not the wind that moves them.

This was a comparison between the Holy Spirit and the wind.

We can only hear the wind (at times) and we can only see it when it effects something (i.e. leaves, etc.). Our knowledge of the wind is limited to exaggerations of what we hear and see. (i.e Storms, Tornados, etc). As for the rest, we take it on faith.

To be reborn of the Spirit is as the wind is... We can hear it and we can see it only when it effects others around us. Otherwise we have to take all else on faith.

 

[LW97]

Because the context is rewards for ministry work in the body of Christ. It has nothing to do with a person having no personal holiness and still being saved despite his disobedience.

Besides, unless you believe in Hypergrace doctrine, the man with no personal deeds of righteousness is showing himself to not be saved, not saved despite his disobedience.

So you think Christ will amputate his body?

 

[Bladerunner]

It does not say He will leave you, but what if you leave Him ? where is your guarantee that you never will ???
Heb 6v4-5-6 !!!

Jesus tells us He will not lose a one of those that His Father has given to him.

Are you one of them... If not, then no need to worry about leaving HIM since you may have never had HIM?

 

[Ralph-]

If you read 2 Timothy 2:12 in context... it talks about whether we rule with him or not, not about salvation (if we suffer he will reign with us)

Vs. 13 keeps you from interpreting it that way:


"12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;

If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
​

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful,

for He cannot deny Himself."-2 Timothy 2:12-13​

​

You see why, don't you?

And Deuteronomy talks about the Covenant he made with Israel.

So, unlike the old covenant, it's okay to worship false gods in this New Covenant because you'll still be saved because God no longer leaves and forsakes his people for doing that like he did in the old covenant? That means I can confess Allah and denounce Christ and receive the mark of the beast instead of my head being chopped off because I'll still be saved nonetheless?

If so, you're sounding a lot like a Hypergrace believer. Even if you claim you're not, the truth is many Christians now have Hypergrace influences in their doctrinal constructs. Even hardcore Calvinists are being deceived by it.

 

[LW97]

Vs. 13 keeps you from interpreting it that way:


"12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;

If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
​

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful,

for He cannot deny Himself."-2 Timothy 2:12-13​

​

You see why, don't you?





So, unlike the old covenant, it's okay to worship false gods in this New Covenant because you'll still be saved because God no longer leaves and forsakes his people for doing that like he did in the old covenant? That means I can confess Allah and denounce Christ and receive the mark of the beast instead of my head being chopped off because I'll still be saved nonetheless?

You're sounding a lot like a Hypergrace believer. Even if you claim you're not the truth is many Christians now have Hypergrace influences in their doctrinal constructs. Even hardcore Calvinists are being deceived by it.

I sound like a hyper grace believer? OK, then you sound like a works salvationist. We have done nothing to deserve salvation. How can we lose it now? "So, unlike the old covenant, it's okay to worship false gods in this New Covenant because you'll still be saved because God no longer leaves and forsakes his people for doing that like he did in the old covenant? That means I can confess Allah and denounce Christ and receive the mark of the beast instead of my head being chopped off because I'll still be saved nonetheless?" Why should a saved man do such junk? Please repent of your sarcasm. A saved man living in sin can never be truly happy.

And 2 Timothy 2:13 actually proofs my point.